The current state of Shadow Crash is sluggish and sometimes unreliable (esp if players with aggro are in constant motion). The amount of time between clicking the spell and when the spell connects is too long and it can sometimes even be buggy with elevated terrain.
Proposal: rework shadow Crash to work like Destro Lock’s Cataclysm. Make it a casted, better telegraphed AoE spell that applies Vamp Touch. Essentially make it do the exact same thing, just be a channeled AoE spell, that when fully cast, applies our dots and has less margin of error.
9 Likes
This among other things needs to be looked at. A lot of Spriest visual clarity and spell effects look dated.
2 Likes
While this doesn’t sound too bad, assuming Shadow Crash HAS to stay, what are your thoughts on Devouring Plague spreading Shadow Word: Pain and Vampiric Touch, with talents, to X targets that are not in crowd control and within Y yards?
My line of thinking is that this solves some glaring problems with Shadow Crash currently and would play somewhat similar to Fire Mage’s Fire Blast spreading Ignite. (Although this might mean that Psychic Link would need an AOE Soft Cap like most AOE Spells, but personally I would like to be able to hit all targets than be hard target capped.)
Pros
- Removes the chance to miss which helps Accessibility
- Fixes the long standing bugs where Shadow Crash just doesn’t apply VT+SWP to targets due to Z-axis/possible LoS issues
- Allows for ramping AOE damage without the feeling of being hard target capped
- Removes a button that some might see as bloat/gives more room for other, more interesting spells
- Rewards players for pooling insanity near the end of a pull in M+ for the next big pull
- Rewards players for not sending apparitions that aren’t going to hit a target before it dies in M+, thus losing Insanity (Very minor)
- Assuming the “not in crowd control” part isn’t bugged, should play well in Arena and punish players for standing too close to each other
Cons
- Might be too good if it reapplies SWP+VT to your current target
- Reduces Shadows combat buttons to almost nothing
- Would likely need to change Psychic Link to be soft target capped, which does lose a niche in M+ but I would argue that Outlaw and Marksman, who are also hard target capped, aren’t doing that well right now (This is very very minor to be real)
1 Like
I just want it to be a spender. No matter how good it is it will feel awful just because we wont have it ready when we need it and it will far too often be out of our control.
I wouldnt even mind keeping it as the goofy slow travel aoe if we could get it as a spender just so if we miss or adds appear we could just spend insanity on a new one.
in aoe i dont mind ditching a DP or mind sear to keep dots up since their value is completely dependent on VT being on all targets anyway for apparations and psychic link.
The only real way to get an impactful shadow crash that is reliable is to make it a spender, the current solution to carve it into 2 talents to spread its value apart is misguided, its the only thing that makes our aoe function without it we may as well not have psychic link since fights dont last long enough for us to have the luxury of dotting up 8 or more targets. Making it 2 talents just means on mostly single target fights we have zero aoe because targets are dead before we get off our third vampiric touch.
Being a spender also keeps it out of the bloated single target rotation.
The only problem with that is that we might not have insanity on the very first pull but there are easy solutions to that like balance druids natures balance.
This is one of the most annoying spells when i play priest how it made it live is beyond me it regularly fails too land and hurts our Dps massively.Warlocks cataclysm never seems to have these issues why spriest gets such a buggy Aoe is just poor design.
If they cant fix this spell think time for a new caster class reroll,if i want to go do some keys later on having a buggy Aoe is not helpful.
Could rework it easily and call it Void Circle.Place a circle on the ground that sucks in all nearby targets withing 8 yards afflicting them with swp/vt and rooting them for 2 seconds.
If doesnt get fixed in 10.1 time for new caster because having such a massive part of our Aoe dps be this buggy is not fun.
All good points I like your thoughts on this. I’m open to them redesigning how we spread SWP/VT. Would ideally love to see it uncapped but understand balancing could be an issue there.
I do also like the idea of it being a spender, but after the 10.1 rework it might be more difficult to realize since our insanity generation is looking to be reduced overall.
Like you’ve mentioned above too, the design is very weird… It looks horrible and moves way too slowly. If we could even just speed the time of travel up then we’d at least have a slightly better spell design. I’m still all for making it a channeled AoE spell more on-line with Cataclysm.
It also sucks when the ability bugs out and doesn’t actually apply to targets…
Id like our dot spread to be split a little from shadow crash.
My ideal version is:
New passive: insanity moves to 50 out of combat
Shadow crash: cost 50 insanity, applies vampiric touch to ~8 targets for x second
shadow word pain now affects all targets within 12 yards.
Misery removed from the game.
This is a good core for the spec, both VT and SW:P have their own identities, you have target counts where you cast VT instead of SC, SC is out of the single target rotation, SC gets to have some oomph, you have far more control over how and when you use it SW:P being readded means a reason to bind it while also bringing back shadows 2 dot management gameplay.
I dont see a version of shadow without SC as a spender ever being successful, the only issue is not having it up first cast which is solved with the passive i suggested (which should be fine since shadow already has a lot of ramp)
With the nerfed damage, it is already only worth using to spread DoTs. I’m not clear why it needs a CD at all. It’s not like you would ever spam it instead of using your main damage abilities.
In that case why does it even need to exist?
instant cast low damage and applies dots is still far better than no damage cast time applies dots.
It needs something do differentiate itself from vampiric touch and SW:P
Yes, it exists to spread dots more quickly. I don’t love it, but relying on putting up DoTs one mob at a time is pointless. So, unless there is a better way to spread DoTs, we need shadow crash. I’d prefer something different, but Blizz loves shadow crash for some reason.
Oh my post was supposed to say why does ‘VT’ even need to exist.
Multidotting is fun game play at about 3-4 targets, beyond that it needs to be taken out.
Shadow crash without a CD would eclipse VT, its better in every way. you could basically delete VT, SW:P and make shadow crash apply 2 dots named ‘shadow crash 1/2’
the only way for SC to keep its power and utility is to make it a spender, it should be a core part of shadows kit since its the only tool that enables AoE.
Imagine if Shadow Crash:
- Had 2 charges with a 20s CD
- Was targetable on NPCs rather than the ground so you don’t cast it on tree branches
- Had its radius of effect expanded to be equal to that of Mass Dispel, so you are less likely to miss mobs
If Blizzard said the tradeoff would be that Crash would do zero damage, I would gladly take it.
3 Likes
2 charges at 20s each means you will never need to cast VT outside of insanely niche situations.
In that case SC completely eclipses VT in every way while needlessly adding more buttons. You may as well just make VT aoe at that point, there really isnt any reason not to.
Removing dots from shadow is very misguided and making shadow crash availability too generous will accomplish that
Yup, agreed.
This is why imo the ability we use to spread dots should operate within very specific parameters to prevent completely outshining casting the dots manually.
- Cooldown should be long enough to make it more impactful in dot spreading.
- Cooldown reduction via spirits to reward active engagement play.
- Instant cast to quickly transition into your rotation and to avoid hard casting issues that casting VT brings.
- Target activation instead of ground activation to avoid wasting the cooldown.
Taking into consideration the points above, I think having Cascade come back as the dot spreader instead would flow so much better.
Cascade
Instant 30-45 sec cooldown (choice with shadow crash)
- Launch a Shadowy bolt that grows in power with distance, damaging an enemy and then bouncing to additional enemies 4 times. Each time it bounces, it splits into 2 bolts.
Whispering Shadows (Redesign)
- Shadow Crash and Cascade apply Vampiric Touch upon dealing damage.
Shadow Apparitions reduce the cooldown by 1 sec when they deal damage.
So something like that. With something like Cascade, it become a button to hit for mass AOE only and then gets enhanced to spread dots while also allowing the cooldown reduction to occurs with spirits which would reset more often with more targets. So it really excels in multi targets and almost useless in single target.
Cascade would be perfect for discipline with an added bonus that applies SW:P and renew. It would be a great way to set up attonement and dots.
The problem with shadow is that its only aoe capabilities come from already having dots on targets (dot damage, apparitions, psychic link) and our aoe is capped by that. We need a tool that starts the rest of our aoe toolkit quickly, apparitions and psychic link are fine being optional, mass dot spread though is far too important to be optional.
The only way to allow multidotting and shadow crash to coexist is to make shadow crash exclusive with another single target spell to keep it out of single target rotation, and the best way to do that is to make SC an insanity spender.
You can multidot with VT on 3 or so targets and nuke them all with DP and MF:I, or you can be lazy and use shadow crash and miss out on the multipliers. At 4+ targets though spamming VT becomes incredibly unfun, its setting up multipliers you may never get to take advantage of and its very unclear exactly when to stop.
The only single issue with that design is the first shadow crash of a dungeon where you wont have it available. The simple solution is to grant a ‘natures balance’ type talent that sets insanity to 50 out of combat.
Done, all problems solved. Single target is cleaner, aoe is FAR smoother.
Having both Cascade and Shadow Crash as a choice talent would be ideal as options.
I think having a long cooldown on Cascade would be its drawback and then making Shadow Crash cost insanity but remove its cooldown would work.
Then Whispering Shadows using spirits to reduce the cooldown on Cascade and then maybe enhance the damage done to your next Shadow Crash by 1% stacking up to 20-40%.
Or something like that.
I think having Shadow Crash as a Spender and Cascade both coexisting in the same choice node would be ideal.
Edit:
I am not on board with having a single target/multi target choice node though. Mainly because Shadow Crash is just a mechanically horrible spell. I would want a different AOE spell. So if Shadow Crash remains, I want a different choice other than Shadow Crash to spread dots.
Increase its speed (seriously blizz why is it so slow) and it would be good to go.
Dot upkeep is non-negotiable imo, a 45s CD isnt doing shadow any favors. You need mass dots available at all times for a cost otherwise you have zero aoe. ZERO.
I dont really think there is a way to make them compete, you cant compare an always available dot spreader to one on a 45s CD even with CDR. My suggestion for shadow crash is a set up spell with a cost, if they add in a new aoe skill then it should take advantage of the set up rather than competing for set up.
Cascade is also the hybrid spell that weaves between friend and foe, that doesnt really fit for shadow unless it was mostly utility, its perfect for disc in every way.
An example of what i could imagine being a cool interaction beyond my suggestion would be something like halo detonating all VTs on enemy targets and causing them to deal aoe damage in an 12y radius consuming VT. This would mean setting up with SC, dumping important single target spells, detonating with halo for MASS aoe then setting back up.
Id prefer mind sear with a CD coming back than cascade.
There are a lot of cool ideas that could be added but i honestly think that SC as a spender is essential to a functional spec
Shadow Crash is a mechanical failure
- Ground target takes an extra step to both activate the targeting circle and launch the missile only to risk missing entirely because the targets moved or Z-Axis issue causing the targets to not get hit because it landed on stairs or your camera got messed up at the worst moment and caused the missile to hit a beam or post background surface and waste it completely. This is a problem with it being a cooldown or costing resources.
- The speed of the missile would just reduce/mitigate the mechanical issues, but they would still exist and still cause problems enough to justify a different option for spreading AOE.
Mind Sear in modern wow has more downsides than positive sides.
- Channeling Mind Sear brings risk of interrupting it to move or getting cc of any kind. This was not that bad when it did not cost resource. But with it costing resources, it’s a massive issue as you can waste resources constantly.
- While channeling, your entire rotation just pauses and literally splits your spec in half in how it functions with spell cooldowns and synergies.
Cascade would work well. Not sure the issue you’re seeing.
- Having spirits reduce the cooldown passively adds a rewarding gameplay loop.
- Not having to target it allows you to start other casts while it’s spreading dots. Thus no wait time needed.
- Changing Mental Decay to increase VT and SW:P duration with spirits will also add into the rewarding gameplay loop.
Halo should remain a burst AOE button, or at least that’s what it should be. I don’t think that should be much of a spec interaction button, I think it should be just raw damage. But I do think having a build in cooldown reduction in Halo would be nice where each target hit will reduce the cooldown by 1 sec. That way it’s a great burst button for mass AOE but not really effective in single target.
Many specs have ground targeted spells, its new to priests but i dont think its a major problem. Being confined to a CD for your most important spell is what makes it a problem since you do as good as nothing till its out so you are pressured to toss it out asap which leads to risky uses instead of holding it for when you can get the best shot. Costing insanity would fix that problem since you could overlap the new one when you are ready.
Mind sear felt great but what made it feel dreadful was 1gcd channels and awkward tick rate.
I think as a costless CD it would be fine, having ‘awkward’ abilities gives the player points of mastery like knowing when to use it for max value. Shadow needs better mobility overall tbh and making it core to aoe made us a turret but as a CD, say a 3-6s channel every 40s or so would feel fine. Balance it around 4.5s and if you get that final tick you get bonus damage.
Im a fan of spirits reducing the cooldown of a spell, im not a fan of that being shadow crash because it pushes the awkward overlap between SC and VT which i despise.
Id be happy to see it for my idea of mind sear or perhaps even halo. I dont like cascade for jumping between friend and foe, its perfect for disc but poorly suited to shadow, if it jumped just between enemies it would be fine i guess but completely unneeded, just like halo.
The problem with shadows aoe is that EVERYTHING relies on dots being on the target. Apparitions, psychic link, idol of N’Zoth, dots themself etc. There simply cant be any forced downtime that reducing a CD would allow especially if that downtime CDR relies on having dots already on the target.
Dot spread cant be treated as a bonus, it needs to be core to the aoe gameplay because without it there isnt any aoe gameplay. Even if the CD typically reset before dots fell off it would still have common edge cases like shadow currently has with 30s CD shadow crash relying on targets living for 30s and no new adds.