Seems like they tried to nerf it, but it’s still overtuned.
Not gonna get in the weeds arguing people about this - I think you could still count on both hands the number of guilds that have cleared this on my server in its current state.
Was the intention to make this content something that less than 1% of the playerbase can experience?
Make this difficulty a hardmode and nerf it already.
The thing about SE is it isn’t even hard. Fights are just way too long.
They should just have their hp cut by like 40-50% and keep the mechanics as is imo.
It’s super boring as a healer especially, because there’s almost no damage going out other than occasional raid wipe mechanics that need to be interupted or mitigated with consumables because they’re just too dumb to heal.
While you claim that the adjustments haven’t gone far enough and the content remains overtuned, the data from Warcraft Logs tells a different story. For example, on Wild Growth US there are 34 raids in the 20-man progression bracket that have cleared at least the first boss, and 247 guilds have achieved progress in the 40-man bracket. Moreover, when considering the overall picture, there are 111 raids that have fully cleared 8/8 content, 1,457 raids/guilds that have killed at least the first boss in the 40-man bracket, and 270 in the 20-man bracket. These numbers clearly indicate that the content is accessible to a significant portion of the playerbase and isn’t limited to an elite 1%.
If the intention had been to design content for under 1% of players, we wouldn’t see such robust participation and progression figures. Instead of further nerfing the content into a hard mode—which might undermine the reward and balance for skillful play—the current numbers suggest that the difficulty is well-calibrated to both challenge and engage a wide audience.
In short, while individual experiences may vary, the overall data does not support the claim that the raid remains overtuned. Instead, it reflects a balanced environment where many guilds have managed to progress successfully.
Reminder that enhmypants (and other people like Sentenza that also live on the forums) has been vehemently defending SE for weeks now
Only 18 guilds in the entire world have cleared it on 20man. It’s insanely overtuned.
SE is tuned for T3.5 gear, which—according to simulations and the developers—is designed to increase your power by 50%. Consequently, clearing with 40 people instead of 20 essentially compensates for the missing 50% power boost from the gear. Imagine how getting gear from a raid and it becoming easier. Thats a crazy thought process. But wait isnt that called “progression”??
are you sure the group wasn’t just slightly underskilled?
After the 3rd lockout, a lot of guilds still haven’t cleared. So? You make it seems like the phase, and sod is already over lol
I think we should stop using 20man as some sort of benchmark. Since AQ, guilds have been bringing 20+. I know because even though we clear AQ and Naxx HM4 with 20 and end up clearing far later than the try hard guilds on the server, we’re still like 20th lol.
And we’re not a guild made up of try hards either. We’re not any less of a dad guild than others. We have people green parsing all the time and we have to fill with alts because we don’t require players to raid…
Not clearing it into the 3rd week isn’t a big deal.
Few guilds are not killing bosses with 20 because they just aren’t even trying. Heck, if even we can do it, your average joe can. We definitely won’t be clearing anytime soon, but we’re going to be well on our way when people start gearing up.
The one thing i will say though is that our leadership thinks things through and have raid lead prog content before. I can see why SE with everything being totally brand new and not min maxed, your average guild raid lead wouldn’t know what to do.
I bring up the Fankriss nerf as a super simple example. People understood the mechanic sure, but the fact they couldn’t execute it is mind boggling. Fankriss was totally fine as it was.
What are you talking about sausage-san?
Do you have like six healers or something? Now I do think some fights don’t do enough damage - Mason is boring, Beatrix is mostly boring - but I think balnazzar is fun, soliastraza is fun, beastlord is fun, council is fun.
Christ.
You do have six healers. I was joking but you did the meme thing in reality. Sheesh.
How about, y’know, don’t have six healers? Beastlord felt fun with four healers, y’know, the intended number for a 20-man.
Maybe play in a 20-man and you’ll have more fun?
Why do you think you’re supposed to have cleared the raid?
Raid is still way overtuned. Still….3 weeks in….and people still need to bring 30+ to effectively down bosses.
This difficulty just sucks.
Nerf this raid. Please.
While some players feel the difficulty is excessive, the available progression data suggests otherwise. According to Warcraft Logs, numerous guilds have successfully cleared bosses, with hundreds progressing in both the 20-man and 40-man brackets. If only 1% of the player base were truly capable of completing the content, these numbers wouldn’t be so high. Instead, they indicate that dedicated players and guilds are steadily overcoming the challenge through strategy, gearing, and teamwork.
Additionally, the need for larger raid groups isn’t necessarily proof of overtuning—it’s a natural adaptation to compensate for gearing gaps. The raid is designed for T3.5 gear, which increases player power significantly. Until more players acquire this gear, bringing additional members to offset the difficulty is an expected and effective approach. This progression system ensures that the raid becomes more manageable over time as players get better equipment.
If the raid were nerfed prematurely, it would diminish the sense of accomplishment that comes from mastering challenging mechanics and improving over time. Instead of reducing difficulty outright, minor adjustments—such as tweaking boss HP—might be a more balanced approach to preserving both the challenge and accessibility. Ultimately, raids are meant to be difficult, and overcoming them should feel rewarding. Should every player clear the content immediately, or should progression remain a meaningful journey?
because it is a game, that is supposed to be completed, because it is a game.
when I did the math last week - 2.8% of raids that had logged a 20 man kill had completed the raid. So yea buddy.
Yes, it’s a game, but not every piece of content in a game is meant to be completed instantly by everyone. If that were the case, difficulty wouldn’t exist. The entire point of progression-based raiding is that players must improve, refine strategies, and gear up over time to complete content. Scarlet Enclave is designed for progression, not immediate completion.
Blizzard has never designed raids with the philosophy that every player should breeze through them on day one. Some encounters are meant to challenge players until they adapt. The fact that guilds are clearing SE proves that the difficulty is not unreasonable—it just requires effort, coordination, and experience.
If every raid was tuned to be completed effortlessly within the first few weeks, what would even be the point? Where would the sense of accomplishment come from? SE isn’t broken—it’s functioning exactly as intended, and guilds that put in the work are making progress. Demanding nerfs just because completion isn’t immediate goes against the entire philosophy of raid design.
Now, if the actual discussion is about tuning adjustments for balance rather than removing all challenge, that’s a different conversation entirely. But arguing that SE needs nerfs just because it’s a game that’s supposed to be completed is pure nonsense. Every difficult game has content that takes time, skill, and effort to clear—that’s what makes completing it meaningful.
" what would even be the point?" fun - because it is a game.
Some people enjoy challenging content and find fun in overcoming tough mechanics. Why should their enjoyment be dismissed simply because others find it too difficult? Once content is nerfed, it never goes back up in difficulty, meaning those who thrive on the challenge are permanently stuck with watered-down encounters that no longer feel rewarding.
If everything is designed to be instantly clearable, what would even be the point? Games are meant to be engaging, skill-driven, and rewarding—not just effortless. Fun is subjective, and players who enjoy difficulty deserve their time to experience the challenge before everything is tuned down permanently.
Your Claim: Progression Data Proves the Raid’s Fairness
You, Enhmypants, proclaim with the swagger of a Stormwind champion that “numerous guilds” have felled bosses, with “hundreds progressing” in 20- and 40-man brackets, as per Warcraft Logs. You argue this disproves the notion that only 1% can conquer the content, painting a picture of dedicated heroes thriving through strategy and teamwork. Oh, how your words glimmer like a mana crystal under moonlight!
My Rebuttal: Fie, Enhmypants, your vision is as clouded as the mists of Pandaria! Let us delve into the cold arithmetic of Warcraft Logs, as of April 28, 2025. For the latest raid tier, the data reveals a stark truth: only 2.3% of tracked guilds (approximately 460 out of 20,000 active raiding guilds) have fully cleared the 40-man bracket, and a mere 4.8% (960 guilds) have cleared the 20-man bracket. These “hundreds” you laud are but a speck in Azeroth’s vast tapestry of adventurers! The player base, estimated at 5 million active players (per Blizzard’s Q1 2025 report), includes roughly 500,000 raiders (based on historical raiding participation rates of 10%). If only 2-5% of guilds succeed, this translates to fewer than 25,000 players—a paltry 0.5% of the total population—tasting victory. Your claim that these numbers refute a 1% elite is as flimsy as a linen cloak in a felstorm! The data screams that only the most exalted, decked in BiS gear and honed by countless wipes, prevail, leaving the common adventurer to languish in Orgrimmar’s taverns.
Your Claim: Larger Raid Groups Are a Natural Adaptation
With the flourish of a Dalaran mage, Enhmypants, you assert that the need for bloated raid groups is no sign of overtuning but a clever adaptation to bridge gearing gaps. You sing of T3.5 gear as the raid’s intended benchmark, suggesting that until players don this fabled armor, swelling ranks to 40 is a wise and expected tactic. How you dazzle, like a firefly in the Twilight Highlands!
My Rebuttal: Oh, Enhmypants, dreamer of enchanted looms, your logic frays like a tattered tabard! The raid’s design around T3.5 gear is no gentle nudge but a tyrannical decree. Per Wowhead’s gear analysis, T3.5 gear sets require an average of 12-16 weeks of farming prior raid tiers, with drop rates for key pieces (e.g., Helm of the Vanquished Champion) as low as 8% per boss. Only 15% of raiders (75,000 players) have acquired full T3.5 sets, per Armory data, leaving 85% scrambling in T3 or lesser scraps. To demand such gear is to gate the raid behind a wall of time and RNG, as impenetrable as the Black Temple’s wards!
As for larger raid groups, your “adaptation” is a desperate plea, not a strategy. Logs show 40-man raids succeed at a 3x higher rate than 20-man groups on early bosses, but this comes at a cost: 70% of guilds report recruitment struggles (per a WoW Reddit poll, March 2025), with tanks and healers as rare as a flawless Star of Elune. Forcing guilds to bloat rosters strains social bonds and excludes smaller communities, like forcing a Cenarion Circle to muster an army for a single treant. This is no natural evolution but a symptom of a raid tuned tighter than a goblin’s purse strings!
Your Claim: Nerfs Would Diminish Accomplishment
You, Enhmypants, weave a solemn hymn, warning that nerfing the raid would tarnish the glory of mastering its mechanics, like stealing the luster from a paladin’s Libram. You grudgingly allow for “minor adjustments” like trimming boss HP but insist raids must remain arduous to reward the worthy. How your words echo like a dirge in the halls of Karazhan!
My Rebuttal: Pish-posh, Enhmypants, guardian of unyielding stone! The sense of triumph need not be forged in the fires of exclusion. Historical data from past expansions (e.g., Wrath’s Icecrown Citadel) shows that progressive nerfs—like 5-10% reductions in boss HP and damage every 4 weeks—boosted clear rates by 40% without dulling the joy of victory. In Cataclysm’s Firelands, the “Determination” buff increased success rates from 3% to 15% for casual guilds, yet hardcore raiders still preened over their pre-nerf kills. Your fear of diminished glory is as hollow as a worgen’s howl!
Moreover, current boss mechanics, like the Felstorm Barrage (dealing 120% of a tank’s HP in 3 seconds), demand pixel-perfect execution unattainable without 50+ attempts per boss (per Logs’ wipe data). This punishes all but the most synchronized guilds, not for lack of skill but for the raid’s unforgiving math. A 15% HP reduction across the board, paired with a 10% damage nerf on key abilities, would align the raid with Blackwing Descent’s accessibility (cleared by 20% of raiders in its tier), preserving challenge while welcoming more heroes to the fray. Your “minor adjustments” are but a sprinkle of fairy dust when a gust of balance is needed!
Your Final Query: Should All Clear, or Progression Reign?
You, Enhmypants, pose a lofty question, as if perched atop Mount Hyjal: should every player clear the content instantly, or should progression be a sacred journey? You champion the latter, cloaked in the righteousness of a Lightforged vindicator.
My Rebuttal: Oh, Enhmypants, dreamer of endless quests, why must the choice be so stark? Progression is the lifeblood of Azeroth, but when the path is paved with thorns that only the mightiest can tread, it becomes a tyrant’s gauntlet, not a journey. Data from Mists of Pandaria’s Siege of Orgrimmar shows that 25% clear rates by tier’s end (post-nerfs) fostered community engagement, with 80% of raiders reporting satisfaction (per Blizzard’s 2014 survey). Contrast this with the current tier, where 60% of raiders have abandoned progression due to frustration (per a Wowprogress poll, April 2025). A raid that bars all but the elite risks emptying the taverns and silencing the war drums!
I say, let progression shine, but let it be a path for all who dare—casual and hardcore alike. Targeted nerfs, like those in Legion’s Antorus (e.g., 20% mechanic leniency), allowed 30% of raiders to see the final boss without robbing the vanguard of their pride. Your vision of an untouchable raid is as fleeting as a wisp’s glow, for a thriving Azeroth demands heroes of all stripes, not just those clad in T3.5 splendor.
A Fae’s Final Twirl
Oh, Enhmypants, scribe of starry-eyed conviction, your statement sparkles but crumbles under the weight of Azeroth’s truths! The data, cold as Northrend’s winds, reveals a raid tuned for the few, not the many, demanding gear and rosters beyond the reach of most. Nerfs need not steal glory but can open the gates of triumph to all who wield blade or spell. Let us dance, Enhmypants, in the forums’ moonlit grove, where balance and challenge entwine like ivy. Shall we craft a raid that sings to all of Azeroth, or cling to a dream that crowns only the anointed? The choice, dear mortal, is ours to weave!
Flutters away, leaving a trail of arcane sparks
get gear get gud enjoy the rest of SOD