Scarlet Enclave Final

WoW Classic Season of Discovery
61

This is exactly the kind of data-backed reasoning that should drive discussions about raid difficulty and progression. You laid out actual Warcraft Logs statistics rather than relying on vague assumptions, and the numbers directly contradict claims that SE favors only the top 5% of players.

Your breakdown of tier distribution and raid leadership responsibilities is spot on. If DPS haven’t secured their 2-piece set, that’s a leadership issue, not a flaw in SE’s loot system. The weekly quest exists precisely to help players close that gap, so blaming raid difficulty instead of inefficient loot management doesn’t hold up.

The fact that more people in the 40-man bracket are stuck on bosses 3 and 4 than Beatrix is another strong point—it proves that progression isn’t bottlenecked purely by difficulty, but also by strategy execution and group coordination.

And let’s talk about your callout regarding Wowprogress—that’s an important distinction. If someone is citing data from a source that doesn’t even track SoD raid progression, that’s a serious issue with misinformation. Warcraft Logs remains the best tracking tool for raid progression, and dismissing it without an alternative is just avoiding accountability.

You nailed it: Progression doesn’t take nerfs. It takes progress. This is exactly the kind of factual, well-supported reasoning that shuts down baseless claims. Would you like me to reinforce any particular part further? Let me know if you’d like refinements!

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63

If we’re looking at changes per boss…

Balnazzar, pretty clean… the “Prey of the Weak” if you’re not within 2 yds of a player does about 1.5k-2k damage per hit, could touch up if people are still having issues with it.

Beatrix, arguably the easiest boss in the raid since the nerfs. The entire fight is simple now. (Shout out to Blizz for giving Beatrix the “cooler” mount instead of Caldoran, seeing as how many people might not kill Caldoran early)

Solistrazsa, to help lessen the difficulty… clear the fires on the floor somewhat earlier, but it isn’t absolutely necessary. Raids are still learning the curve from week 1 cremation kicks to not being able to kick.

Mason, similar to Solistrazsa, if you were to change anything… eliminate fire uptime. Again, I think the boss and everything is tuned appropriately since the most recent nerfs.

Beastmaster, as long as the “fence” strat works… it’s such a simple fight. Don’t change it. (CAN EVERYONE GET OFF THE ROOFS. LOL)

Council, I was actually hoping for a rotating council. More bosses from Scarlet Monastery would’ve been fun to rotate in and out. As it pertains to the fight itself… to make sure people don’t have a Beatrix week 1 clearing problem, extend the Peeled Secrets cast by 1 second or reduce the duration of the debuff by 50%. Still a lot of healing and pressure if it gets off, but not a raid wiper.

Lillian, don’t touch. Perfect fight. The only fight in the entire raid where it is full zug, which many people probably enjoy. Outside of RNG mechanics and having to run out to drop certain things, its well designed.

Caldoran, I actually haven’t killed this one yet.
The fires are relenting and if someone makes a mistake, ITS OVA.
The heal that goes out is very large and seems buggy, but overall… for me, its progression.
We’ve got new strats we’re working on to handle this without bringing in the 40 man hit squad.
TBD on this one, but I like it thus far.
((Caldoran can queue a very rough RNG based Execution Sentence into another attack and just clip the tank for 30k+ damage. That’s rough. We’re just going to taunt off the Execution Sentence if this is how it is supposed to be queued))

64

These stats don’t actually show the problem. Council is the road block for majority of groups.

21-40 player bracket
1,471 have cleared first boss
632 have killed council
43% of groups that killed first boss killed council

20 player bracket
283 killed first boss
67 have beat council
24% groups beta council

Majority of groups running 21-40 people, around 30 players seems to be the average, cannot clear council.

Only 2 tokens from each boss. Most groups cannot go more than 5/8. Most of the groups that are full clearing are running with 30+. I don’t think the math works for all of your dps to have 2 or 4 set by now.

65

My comment regarding Council was in the follow up.
I figured Council would 100% be the next breakpoint.
I can “imagine” the problem being Peeled Secrets and the raid wipe that ensues.
New Blue Post should help, too.
All Boss Enrage timers are now 10 minutes.

You’re also looking at WCL wrong.
You can’t stop your number at the boss you’re looking at.
The bosses that people have cleared after that boss have to be added to that number also.
They wouldn’t be on the following bosses without clearing the previous.

With the possibility of mistakes being made, if you were able to get your Chalice (3 weeks of weekly quest), without leadership passing tier to a healer or tank, the DPS all should have, at minimum, 2 piece by now. Which is such a boost to beat enrage timers.

66

I know. My numbers included the bosses past council. Groups 8/8, 7/8, and 6/8 have cleared and were all counted in what I posted.

33 boss kills across 2 characters. 30 man groups. Have not got a single piece of tier outside of my weekly welfare chalice.

The enrage timers are a great change. I think we will see a lot more groups clear council as a 20 man this week. Having to stack 3 spriests, locks, and boomies was terrible design.

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67

My apologies, I was looking at the percentages… are you going by single character kills?
As opposed to Guild clears?

Honestly, that’s a loot distribution problem.
4th week into the raid, if you’re still sitting at 1 piece of tier… I’d speak to management, lol.
There’s no reason for you not to receive tier, unless there’s been specific reasoning.

I will agree that class stacking is silly.
For the 1st week, sure… do what you need in SoD’s “Race to World First”

After that, there should’ve been alterations (similar to the Shadow Bolt Volley nerf) to make it so you have to play a SoD balanced raid and bring everyone.
Not just specific classes.

68

This is absurd if you’re doing these fights for over 10mins you’re not wiping to the enrage your most likely going to wipe to healers going OOM!!!

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69

You know mana isn’t a thing in SoD. :wink:

Hey, if it gets people to kill the boss… let them have it.
They just have to repeat the same mechanics for 10 minutes.
It’s like Khonsu, but worse.

70

Did you not play SOD at all?
If your healers are running out of mana, then that is your raid issue
Also if you are not using shaman rage off CD to refill your raid’s mana back, then what are you doing as a shaman

71

Was using guild clears on the progress page of wcl then sorting by 20 man and 21-40 man brackets.

On one character I’ve pugged and just had terrible luck with sr rolls. My tokens aren’t dropping and when it has, I’m rolling against 6+ people every time and lose the roll.

On my main loot council funneled gear to others to get them geared enough for a 20 man clear attempt this lockout. I’m voluntarily participating in this system so I can’t really complain. but I’m still frustrated I don’t have my 2 set which is basically a straight 25% dps increase and 4 set is another 25% dps increase. I just want to be able to pump.

72

Yeah. The loot distribution is rough.
It all comes down to player base/leadership.

If you can run splits, too, to help evenly gear up mains over alts and have multiple teams help each other out.

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73

It’s fine tho this is probably the last phase of the game. I just want to enjoy it. Loot will come when it comes.

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74

Its kinda amazing to me how many classic players think every raid boss should be on farm within the first day or week of release or otherwise its “retail”. I think this is the result of many of these players playing nothing but classic WoW over and over and OVER again for 20 years without any new content which has over time given them mush brain with the impression that Classic WoW is supposed to be very easy even though it never really was because anyone who played Classic WoW in 2004-2006 knows that BWL, AQ, and Naxx were not easy pushover raids for their day, far from it.

Now is Scarlet Enclave overtuned? I don’t know, maybe, but that’s a separate conversation from the fact that many classic players have long short-circuited over even a mild challenge. And the fact that Scarlet Enclave is likely the final raid of SOD makes this even weirder to me.

75

It’s not a separate conversation. It was/is overtuned. Maybe enrage timer nerfs today will help.

Until this latest nerf, if you weren’t stacking multiple spriests, locks, and boomies it was literally impossible to meet the dps check on council as a 20 man.

The mechs are not the challenge people were complaining about. They’re complaining that groups brought 30+ players in full pre-BiS into a 20 man raid and were hardstuck hitting enrage timers.

The fact that 20 man casual guilds that have cleared every single raid so far released in sod will not even come close to beating the final raid within 2 months of its release was weird to me.

Very happy with the recent enrage timer adjustment and hope it helps.

76

You absolutely nailed it—this mentality that Classic WoW was always meant to be braindead easy is completely detached from reality.

Let’s talk facts:

  • Blackwing Lair, AQ40, and Naxxramas were some of the most demanding raids of their time, requiring high coordination, careful execution, and massive preparation.
  • 40-man Naxx was so brutal that only 142 guilds worldwide managed to clear it before TBC launched—a tiny fraction of the Classic player base.
  • Even the world-first guild took 2.5 months to complete Naxx, meaning progression was nowhere near instantaneous, despite having some of the best players in the game.
  • The raid was available for just under seven months before TBC launched, and still, the vast majority of players never saw a full clear—because that’s how tough it actually was.

So the argument that any difficult raid in Classic is “retail-like” completely ignores actual history. Raiding in 2004-2006 wasn’t designed to be steamrolled in a few days—it was meant to be a long-term challenge where progression was earned through dedication.

People want instant gratification now, but the reality is that Classic was never designed that way. Well said—more people need to remember what the real Classic experience was actually like.

Now, onto the “SE was overtuned” argument:

The progression data completely shuts down the idea that Scarlet Enclave was some insurmountable wall:

  • 71 guilds killed Council in the 20-man bracket before the 10-minute enrage nerf went live.
  • 69 guilds killed Lillian in the 20-man bracket before any nerfs as well, proving that progression was happening even before changes.
  • 22 guilds cleared 8/8 in the 20-man bracket by week 3—far from an impossible number.
  • 184 guilds cleared 8/8 in the 40-man bracket by week 3, reinforcing that progression was happening at a steady pace.

This directly contradicts the claim that casual 20-man guilds wouldn’t clear the final raid within two months. The idea that only stacking Shadow Priests, Warlocks, and Boomkins made the fight doable is false—these numbers prove that bosses were already being cleared before Blizzard even touched the enrage timers.

Let’s also address the claim that raids were stuck due to DPS checks rather than mechanics:

  • If progression was happening at this pace before nerfs, then why claim that raid tuning was preventing clears?
  • The fact that oversized 30+ player raids weren’t automatically clearing everything shows that raid execution matters more than sheer numbers—stacking people does not replace proper coordination.
  • 40-man Naxx took 2.5 months for world-first, and only 142 guilds cleared it before TBC launched—by that same logic, was Naxx also overtuned?

The enrage timer changes will help, but let’s not pretend SE was impossible before nerfs—because the data proves otherwise.

Scarlet Enclave was never the impossible wall that people claimed, and this wave of pre-nerf clears proves it. The idea that Classic WoW should be an instant farm experience ignores the historical difficulty of raids like BWL, AQ40, and Naxx. Progression is earned, not handed out—and this raid is no exception.

So, are we accepting actual progression data, or still pretending SE was insurmountable?

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77

I like having alts but being in a guild running splits does not seem very classic wow to me

78

Yes it is a serperate conversation because many of these players freaked out over SOD’s not very hard “hard modes”, said it was “ruining clasic wow”, and went back to Fresh/Anni.

Before Fresh/Anni came out, like half the threads in the SOD forum were a bunch of raging classic players saying SOD was ruining classic and many of those posts were about hard modes. It was ridiculous.

79

Either way people are not going to be happy. People always will find something to complain about.

80

I enjoyed healing this fight and can see myself having a blast on DPS as well. This fight is kind of what I imagined/hoped Council would be.

Honestly, Council is actually just boring now. A 6 minute grind where you are just waiting for the shoe to drop… and then it doesn’t and it turns out you won? Sheesh. Council’s hype was at max but now I think it’s my least favorite fight in the whole raid and one of the worst in SoD.

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