Scalecommander Changes

I wish to challenge basically everything of this. I’ve already provided feedback ingame, but 255 characters are only so much.

Let’s go over this line by line:

Correct. Each Bombardment grants cooldown reduction, so having as many up as possible, commonly 1 or 2, naturally yields most cooldown reduction.

The internal cooldown is currently 2 seconds and grants 3 seconds of cooldown reduction at 3 targets, meaning the default duration grants up to 6s guaranteed reduction without extensions from Extended Battle.

A lot to unpack here. Why is unintuitive? Tab targeting to spread dots is common gameplay for some specs. Why in isolation? The comment doesn’t elaborate further, we’re left guessing.

Devastation has not been clipping Disintegrate for over an expansion now. To my knowledge, the last tier it was still situationally recommended was Amirdrassil. So that part is unfortunately completely made up - even worse, Wingleader never was relevant for clipping in the first place because hero talents didn’t exist at the time.

Pooling being called unhealthy behaviour is confusing, as the changes do not address it. Extending Bombardments as long as possible will continue to be optimal even with these changes because it just means more damage from Bombardments. So that goal is neither achieved, nor do I consider it reasonable. The interaction is not Wingleader in isolation, but Accretion, Wingleader, Extended Battle and to a bit even Might of the Black Dragonflight.

These changes are welcome, but were needed regardless. Command Squadron always did so little damage, it was a net loss to fly the full duration of Breath variants, feedback that was provided during the 12.0 Alpha and Beta. Melt Armor (the actual ability inflicting damage from Maneuverability) is in a similar fashion, an afterthought you never cared about.

These changes are not enough to offset the significant nerf the Wingleader change comes with. Napkin math puts it at a cooldown reduction loss of 65% on AoE and 75-80% on single target.

It’s also ignoring:

  • essence economy problems Devastation already suffers from before these changes because it heavily relies on Imminent Destruction
  • significant damage loss for Augmentation on all fronts:
    • obviously less Breath of Eons, so less Duplicate uptime, less Command Squadron and Melt Armor damage
    • less Imminent Destruction also applies to Aug
    • less Bombardments uptime from less Imminent Destruction

Devastation already has multiple feedback posts so I’ll just continue to focus on Aug here. In the current season, Aug does only competitive damage because of Wingleader enabling triple and even quadruple Duplicates. It also has a niche on 2-3t scenarios because of it. That niche now gets obliterated and as it stands, competitive damage is impossible.

Now a couple suggestions of how to instead address the problem instead:

  • cap active Bombardments at two targets
  • reduce the Mass Eruption buff duration to 8-12 seconds
  • if multiple duplicates are the problem, prevent a second from spawning or adjust its base duration
  • if you want to avoid Devastation to fly across the area every ~25s, then address Strafing Run
  • cap Wingleader extensions at 4s per Bombardment

We have moved from Breath of Eons being the big “sync with your party” cooldown in Mythic+ from Dragonflight to “press on cooldown” ever since the introduction of hero trees. Now we’re moving back to “sync with your party” despite previous developer notes stating the goal is to be less dependant on them.

All of these changes are at best disappointing, worst case uninformed, bluntly put. They feel like knee-jerk solutions to a self-created problem with the new tier set reducing the Upheaval cooldown.

Please do better, put more thought into things, please continue to communicate, please continue to iterate.

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What if they instead moved CDR to the empowered spells to prevent people from hoarding Mass Eruption before Bloodlust in some dungeons, removing the quad bombs without punishing Devastation players in the process (I can’t remember if the cooldown for deep breath still reduces but if it doesn’t you can just make it so that it does dev needs the buff anyways). No need to target swap, people cant abuse window lengthening to parse inflate, everyone wins except the people parse inflating (good ending).

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As in, casting an empower spell reduces the cooldown inherently? I can get behind that, but that does sound like an Aug-specific verison of the talent. And the intent was, and seems to be, to encourage casting after your empowers.

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I think blizzard just wants to delete evoker along with all the haters :frowning:

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So sad to see Evoker being treated like this. Somehow Aug was made fun and they take it away from us. :sleepy_face:

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The thing about wingleader CDR is that it is actually something FUN and enjoyable yo do. When you get Deep Breath/Breath of Eons out of cd you feel actually a sense of satisfaction.

Please revert the change. Wingleader CDR allowed us some fun skill expression moments. Take it from me please, I’ve been maining dev Evoker ever since it came out (my main is Zaefir-Stormrage), I’m not a big deal or anything, I’m just a loyal player to the spec. You’re removing all the fun from the spec with this change.

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Before i give my thoughts, i play Aug as an alt (my 6th alt) only for a few weeks now.

I try to understand every spec i play so i put some effort into it but i’m by no mean an evoker one-trick dedicating his life to the spec.

I picked up aug just looking for a fresh alt because i was bored and discovered an actually enjoyable spec that has depth and felt like it escaped the midnight overall bland reworks.

That being said:

-It’s totally untrue spreading bombardments isn’t intuitive, especially if you read the tooltips, it’s actually one of the first things you figure out about the spec.
Less experienced players will figure it out by reading a guide, or they’re probably doing content where it’s not relevant to play around it anyway.

-Managing your ressources, setting up your bombardments on the right targets, planning when you’re gonna breath is the whole fun of the spec, removing that completly drains the skill expression and any satisfaction about playing. If you remove cdr and duplicates management the spec is a generic and hollow caster doing tank damage and slighting buffing others.

-The only real “issue” with the spec currently is the quad bombardments tech which is a really clever use of aug mechanics but clearly wasn’t intended and makes the spec broken in some rare scenarios, you could just adress that by capping the number of bombardments or even duplicates going.

Killing the whole gameplay loop of spreading 2 bombardments and having a positive loop generated from pooling your ressources properly is just terrible game design

If these changes go out i personally see no reason to play Augmentation evoker and will move on to other alts.

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Hey all, I’ve been playing Evoker since it came out. First as an alt in dragonflight, but I jumped into Dev as my main in TWW. The thing that fully sold me on the class WAS the inclusion of their hero talents, both Flameshaper and Scalecommander offered something different and interesting (scalecommander I thought was conceptually one of the coolest hero talents in the game). Flameshaper was best for most of TWW so that’s what I focused on and came to enjoy, especially in mythic plus. With the start of midnight flameshaper as I knew it got completely destroyed in both gameplay and damage tuning, but that was okay for a tier because now I could focus on scalecommander.

For this entire tier I’ve been playing scale in basically all content. I even branched out into Aug and discovered that it was so much more fun than it was when I tried it out on introduction in DF (Though I’m still a Dev main at heart). With this change it feels like you are going to completely destroy scalecommander as I know it. Putting aside the fact that Dev is being shot for Aug’s sin of being the best dps in the game, what is left of this hero talent that is core to it’s gameplay? Pressing Deep breath? Well, we’re doing that significantly less with this change.

Aug and Dev are both not complex enough to be mass stripping elements of it’s gameplay away and replacing it with an entirely passive “buff” to compensate. When flameshaper took a hit and felt undercooked, I thought that it would just take a bit to cook something more interesting with consuming fire breath duration, but with this change that just doesn’t feel like the case anymore. You just want this class to be the simplest, worst version of itself. When the dev note say something that boils down to pressing tab to spread your dot is unintuitive and we’re removing the incentive for you to do so it’s hard not to think that.

I don’t want to be entirely negative, I think that the apex talent change for Dev is in the right direction and I was optimistic about the upcoming season. It’s just hard to keep that optimism with I see Dev catch a nerf at the start of this season, fall to the bottom half of the charts in raid and the literal bottom of the charts in M+ and be completely ignored from that point on. Then coming into a season with a massive nerf to scale that was clearly targeted at Aug with no thought to Dev whatsoever. I really hope we can change course on this and create something interesting for both specs that isn’t just a buff to entirely passive sources.

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I think what really gets me, besides the whole ‘the notes don’t achieve their stated goal’ thing is that the knock on effects from this are going to necessitate a full spec revamp for aug and likely deva (who really just got undeservingly hit with the drive by on this one) just to make up for these changes.

This takes out the engine of the spec. Resources are bottoming out, the momentum is slamming to a halt. The idea of needing to full channel a breath just to wait on some pyres and dots is anathema. During that time our buffs are dropping, we can’t contribute to cc or stops in any meaningful way (the main draw of the class for me). Less essence cost reduction means we are gonna be spamming fillers hoping for procs increasing variance and decreasing the very small amount of skill expression available to the spec.

Worst, this does nothing to resolve the core issues with the spec. Like how we have two secondary stats which do not contribute to damage truly at all? How all of our gameplay changing talents are after the third gate? But this sudden and unfortunate change is likely going to push those out of the conversation until next patch or expac at the earliest.

Deeply disappointing.

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As someone that just picked up Evoker in Midnight, I understand that Aug needs a hit, it makes sense. However I think this direction is unintuitive to say the least. One of the joys of playing Aug comes from being good at gaming the bombardments well and not just being the Ebon Might bot. Worst of all is the clear hit Dev is taking as a bystander in the nerf. I personally think capping the Dupe at 1 and bombardments at 2 is a great change to prevent that from being the direction we go. The ironic part was that I saw the tier set bonuses in season 2 and was genuinely excited to see what kind of shenanigans it led to and ways we could game that. Also I mean this in the nicest way possible, but what are those compensatory buffs? To say they are uninspired would be putting it nicely. The spec is not difficult to understand and the basic gameplay loop is genuinely fun and honestly when you do a good job at positioning and maintaining uptime it feels very rewarding. It takes only a couple missed casts to possibly lose Ebon Might uptime and tank our damage. With a spec that can get punished so heavily for rotational downtime… can we please do better. I appreciate the idea of shaking things up as much as the next… however not at the expense of ruining a spec to achieve that. Please do better, especially with all the data and resources available to you!

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They can’t even be bothered to fix the TurnSpeed CVar bug with Scalecommander that’s been in the game since 12.0 launched, as it’s still a bug on the PTR. I suppose these changes just bring the rest of the class down to that clunkier level.

I just started playing Evoker for the first time and absolutely loved the playstyle and challenge it brought. Really disappointed they are already taking the fun out of it :(.

These changes will take so much of the enjoyment out of this spec. So sad to see

I agree with OP that making changes such as capping out how much CDR we get from each bombardment application, capping how many bombardments we can have out to a max of 2, etc., would be the best way of keeping Wingleader in line as we get more gear the longer the expac goes on.

Less uses of Breath of Eons for Augmentation means less time benefiting from these “buffs” they gave squadron and maneuverability dot (not much baseline anyway), but also less instances of spawning a new duplicate, less activation of talents in the Aug tree based off using Eons (ie: imminent destruction, plot the future), meaning a slowdown of the gameplay in general. I can see that feeling quite unenjoyable to play, even if the devs tune the numbers to be “balanced” output wise.

As others have said though, taking this element out of Scalecommander’s gameplay goes past being a nerf to output, it is a nerf to the fun/identity of that hero talent set.

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I think scalecommander should just be reworked regardless.

Having an entire hero tree system based around deep breath is not good IN MY OPINION.

I think deep breath can be a powerful tool that can be used on its own and I never liked the fact that all the power of this hero tree was tied to it.

I think there can be great benefits to using it in AOE but I never want to use this in single target.

I think Scalecommander should be redesigned to lean more into the fantasy of being a scale commander as well as the blue magic aspect of devastation.

The natural counter to this is Flameshaper which leans into red magic, I think having squadron pets with the same type of functionality as duplicates or enhance shaman ghost wolves would be more appropriate for the class fantasy.

People may disagree with me but I would strongly recommend considering a shift from deep breath centered game play entirely.

I believe this approach would be much easier to balance as well.

Example, essence spenders have a chance to summon a member of your squadron to assist you in combat, their attacks give you passive CDR and you could in essence (puns haha) have multiple up at a time which would give more of a scalecommander leading his squadron fantasy.

Just my feedback. Thanks.

Preface: I don’t play Augmentation, only Devastation.

I’m going to disagree with pretty much everyone here and say that these are overall positive changes for the long term design health of Devastation.

Many people in this thread have stated that tab-targeting Mass Disintegrate to spread Bombardment is not unintuitive, and that other classes tab-target to spread DOTs. However, tab-targeting Mass Disintegrate to spread Bombardment is very different from a Warlock tab-targeting to spread Agony, or a Balance Druid spreading Moonfire.

The primary purpose of Mass Disintegrate is not DOT application, but priority damage. Tab-targeting your priority damage ability IS unintuitive. Devastation has to make a lose-lose choice in either tab-targeting MD to spread Bombardment or chain casting on a priority mob to maintain prio-damage on spec that is already widely regarded as doing “pad AoE”. A choice that (to my knowledge) no other DPS spec in the game has to make.

An Affliction Warlock might tab-target to spread Agony, but will always cast Haunt on the priority mob. Or to put it another way, imagine a world in which Assassination Rogue has to tab-target Envenom to spread Rupture. Such as design would (rightly) be widely condemned, but that’s exactly the world Devastation finds itself now and somehow people are defending this as “skill expression”.

Any change that removes the need to tab-target Mass Disintegrate is a welcome change in my book and necessary for the long term design health of the spec. The current buffs are probably not enough compensation and more will be needed, but I’m still more optimistic about where Devastation is going after reading these patch notes than before.

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I also agree regardless of my thoughts on scalecommander as a whole but yeah…

Can I tab target to spread bombardment? Yes.

Do I like or want to do that? NO.

Its annoying to tab target and then retarget the mob I actually wanna dps just because I have to optimize my CDR.

This is a welcomed change.

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This was fixed early into 12.0.

We have no priority damage anyway so theres zero need to retarget back. If pressing tab is such a problem for you, you can also just not do that, Bombardment duration stacks after all.

Since Mass Disint splits damage and has inherently no priority damage because of splitting, this is unfortunately incorrect. That’s actually one of the problems SC Deva has, having no priority damage with MD.

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I never said it was a problem, I said it was annoying.
and are you going to tell me that in an aoe situation its not a dmg loss to just not tab target?

Idk man.

Of course it’s a damage loss. But so are many other things too. Just because you don’t like this particular interaction doesn’t mean nobody should have it.