I want to start by saying I either play solo or doing mythic+, there is no raiding (havent even done LFR).
It seems that every dungeon run I do, I feel that I end up with so much wasted time with RoP.
It seems that often after I put it down, there is a random effect, mob movement or something else happens that requires me to move and I end up losing both the time DPS on the mob/boss etc and the uptime on RoP.
I have really tried to work on positioning and timing but its always the random things that seems to mess it up.
So what I am wondering is, how much of a loss is it to use IC or FM? I like the idea of FM but it requires me casting it on someone else, meaning solo is essentially useless. In mythic+ there is always someone to pick but 5% doesnt seem as valuable to Frost (im under the 33% crit so there is a boost for me for now) but the int boost is nice.
IF seems nice as its always up and affects everything so over the span of the dungeon it would add up. Just miss those burst windows.
So in case you havent noticed, Im going back and forth on this.
iâll stick with RoP if its hands down the best option and just suck up the frustration but I just dont know how close the other two options are for Frost.
Anyway, any advice or input anyone else has would be appreciated.
FM is actually > RoP on Frost if you put it on someone else that reliably crits (like another Frost mage or a healer that focusses on crits) - it isnât as potent on DoT classes since it doesnât increase the crit % of DoTS. If thereâs sufficient uptime on the buff it overtakes RoP.
However RoP is extremely reliable because you control everything and a 30 second RoP (15 from IV and 15 from your on-use) is just too good for many to pass up because youâre not relying on the RNG of another spec.
Worth noting FM is sometimes better for healers that are struggling with an affix because it increases their throughput, so you can let go of some DPS for the greater good if your ego isnât tied into your DPS numbers ^.^
The question âhow much of a loss is itâ is highly individual because as youâve noticed, itâs not that straightforward how to maximize performance with RoP. Itâs hard for others to figure out how much value youâre getting out of it (and thus hard for anyone but you to answer how much of a loss it could be).
Even if youâre really good at utilizing RoP, I think itâs still worth it to have an attitude open to experimentation. Itâs not like switching talents is a huge investment in time or effort.
Iâm hoping someone is going to do some number crunching to give us a better idea of âidealâ situations for FM. For example, what crit % would someone need to make it worthwhile (20%? 25%? 35%?) and what kind of uptime would they need on a boss (eg: as bosses go on farm and fights become easier, healers may potentially cast less making the buff less potent). That would give us a good idea of whether we should be running FM or RoP, as well as who to put it on if that player dies.
Personally I hated RoP up until 9.0. The changes make it a little simpler to use (it tends to line up well with Orb or a 2 FoF, 1 BF bank) and short of heavy-movement fights thatâs probably what Iâll run (Iâm also the only non-dot caster in our guild and I donât currently know what stats our heals will stack).
For Solo stuff though Iâd just run IF to be honest if youâre struggling to get good uptime on RoP.
Focus Magic doesnât affect magic dots? That doesnât sound accurate. It should be a straight 5% magic crit increase for your target.
I donât pay attention to my buffs, but i usually place it on a resto druid if there is one and it procs often enough that the sound gets annoying.
And i agree about RoP. Iâve hated it up until these changes. I even use it in rbs, lots of opportunities to get good placement when you pop Combustion. And you get another right after to finish them off. (Strictly leveling in rgs with a few dungeons for gear.)
It doesnât, because then the uptime would be 100% given how they could DoT everything and have the DoTS just crit away. I guess I worded it poorly, it doesnât âinteractâ via DoT ticks; if their DoTs crit with FM on them you donât get the buff.
It says âWhen the target critically hitsâ, it doesnât say when they get a direct damage critical. They need to change the wording on it if itâs only direct damage that can proc the crit buff.
Iâd really like to see the differential on ânew Runeâ vs Incanterâs for Frost. While I do find Rune feels like it has a place for Arcane and Fire, just using it on CD for Frost seems ⌠meh.
You will get better at dancing around your ring and staying in range for the buff. Except for extreme movement mechanics on bosses etc, then you can just plan around those.
For frost, lot of your rings should be lined up with orbs and icy veins, which also means youâll spend a lot of your time spamming ice lance rather than hardcasting.
For fire, the same is true of the combust window with instant casts.
My experience is that Focus Magic is absolute garbage.
IF, however, is within 1% of a perfectly played Rune of Power - depending on the length of the fight. Sometimes it pulls slightly ahead, sometimes it falls a percentage or two more behind. Remember â that is against a perfectly played Rune of Power.
The second you drop your Rune at a slightly improper moment, then have to move out of an AOE, youâre falling behind IF drastically.
Math aside whomever you place it on they should be getting a crit at least once every 10 seconds. This favors dual wield classes, classes who can fit in a lot of critable actions in that time window, or classes that have on-demand crit abilities.
This rules out most healers (Shaman and Pally I think are the two main exceptions to that but I havenât healed in a while).
It pretty much entirely rules out tanks.
Now to the math parts. 5% crit scales best at 45% base crit or lower and 20% crit or better. crit suffers severe diminishing returns after 50% in addition to the actual stat DRs, and 20 to 25 converts a 1:5 chance to a 1:4, while to go from a 1:4 to a 1:3 would mean another 8% crit & going from a 1:6 to a 1:5 leaves wasted value (16.66âŚ->21.66⌠vs 20->25). Thatâs all napkin math though. An argument could be made for 15% -> 20%, though I tend to find that if your crit value is low already moving from a 1:6.66⌠to a 1:5 chance isnât that valuable to you.
Iâve simmed it a lot.
I sit within 1%-5% of every other mage i run mythic Nya with (about 2-3 of them) â they all run RoP â I run IF â assuming something doesnât go drastically wrong.
If you have a tank aware of the CD and he times your mythic+ pulls around your RoP, then there would be a very large difference â but thatâs not how the game works for 99% of us.
Once imperfect placement and movement is brought into the equation, IF pulls ahead. And Iâm not sorry.
Iâd do some napkin math for youâŚsuch as:
40% increase with 30% uptime vs 5-20% increase with 100% uptime, but in reality, it is very much more complicated than that. Add in the fact that Frost canât control when it gets 6 Ice Lance procs in a row â or when it gets back to back Frostbolt - Flurry - Ice Lance - Ice Lance procsâŚand you can see that sometimes IF is going to pull ahead, and sometimes itâs not. At the end of the day, with randomness entered into the equation, for all practical purposes, and in the sims, which I have run a plethora of, IF is absolutely within a percentage of a perfectly played Rune of Power.
No, it isnât. Iâm sorry (again) but no. IF isnât within 1% of RoP. Itâs at its best 3% weaker on any relevant Ice Lance build when RoP is used sub-optimally.
What youâre trying to say is IF is safer, which is true. But with perfect play RoP is FAR ahead of IF (way ahead than 1%). There isnât a single reliable source out there that will put perfectly played RoP just within a single % of IF.
It also logically makes no sense for Blizz to put in an active talent that requires careful thought and a timing window, AND a GCD to only pull 1% ahead of something that is entirely passive.
Also Iâm assuming you mean 30% uptime as in 15 seconds on a 45 second cooldown? You didnât even factor in that Icy Veins will drop a free RoP for you as well. Your math is wrong.
Also Iâm not one to go into someoneâs logs because I feel like every guild/group has their own way of killing a boss - but sitting within 5% of another mage is horrible when youâre trying to down relevant content. Also if youâre comparing yourself to the mages in your own guild, it isnât a logical comparison unless you both are equally as good or bad in terms of using your rotation & cooldowns.
Looking at some fights youâve done recently, the other mages in your group arenât always using their RoP optimally, even in a pre-patch where all the fights are pretty much down to a script now. But again, this isnât a dig at them since you guys probably have your own way of killing bosses or your own mood (eg: we all drink in my group when weâre raiding). Youâre also ilvls ahead of your other Frost mage so you will likely have better base stats anyway.
So your napkin math and comparisons are just wrong & hold no merit in deducing the % performance of the two talents.
Edit: FYI, even on sims right now, IF is inferior to FM as well, and rightfully so as it trades off its throughput for the fact that it is entirely passive.
I find it to be especially good in m+ as there is time for it to reset while travelling between packs and the boss fights are shorter meaning a higher net uptime on rop (outside of high tyrannical keys where boss fights frequently exceed 5 minutes).
If you time it correctly with your other cds and the tank pulls around your cds, you can make a significant difference between any other options on the row.