RSS and PvP generally needs to become it's own game

PVP Arenas
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I’m trying to come back to play WoW bgs / arenas with friends after Plunderstorm assuming that there would be some action on retail (more than classic anyways) and each step of the way there are just barriers upon barriers. I’m not opposed to the modern QoL of retail now, but the design is all over the place when it comes to combat and damage pacing.

It’s good that we have much better control over the UI using default tools, although there is still a lot of addon setup required to seriously track all of the stuff going on. The gearing is still a pretty confusing for a returning player. I can figure it out cause I have friends and played the game forever before this, but a casual returning player interested in WoW PvP probably would not for awhile.

The game is like unnecessarily fast-paced, to the point where no individual action feels like it has much impact, nowadays it’s more like getting swarmed by hornets which kill you near instantly, than getting hit in the face by a dump truck (such as occasional TBC arena windfury crits for example). In both cases you can die fast, but one feels very different and almost like you have more breathing room to respond.

There are a million stagger CCs and too many important ICDs to keep track of. It’s not just like I’m tracking my own buffs and debuffs, but I’m also needing to track alpha tiger and skyreach on a per target basis, while eating 26 stagger CCs and having to interrupt my damage dealing process to kite and run away at the same time and try to find an opening to re-initiate. I’m not opposed to the push and pull, I’m opposed to the annoyance of having to stop my string of 1,000 actions which have to be aligned because I just realized that I need to temporarily run, and have now messed up the “script”… and if I want a chance to make it I’m going to have to run for 10,000 years awaiting CDs because you can’t do normal damage in this game anymore by just positioning yourself well relative to your enemies’ composition.

I like high skill cap PvP, but not if it takes this shape where I need to do some mythic PvE 99 parse rotation nonsense in the middle of all of it. This is like math-brain gameplay or something, it’s not as fun as peak WOTLK arenas. If you want speedy gameplay it should have more to do with certain specific combos where your gameplay speeds up temporarily.

I mean look at this ridiculous setup process, this is ASSUMING I’ve already got my enemies defensive cooldowns where I want them, crowd control is in place for my team etc. - I need to make sure my skyreach / alpha tiger ICDs are prepared for the target I want to use them on, pop xuen for haste, get my enemies in a faeline stomp, serenity with trinket, start the actual damage combo with palm and strike, rsk and fof, hopefully not having it interrupted by anything. I mean the chain of events is too long.

I mained warr in wrath not monk but it was basically… get in there, and just start doing your basic damage rotation, there wasn’t really a “penalty” for pressing rend, MS or Overpower early. When you wanted to make a play you would coordinate some CC with your team, I might call to wait and let me get a focus pummel before we start the chain, or try and catch a cast with Unrelenting Assault… then so long as my hamstring rend and MS debuffs have enough time on them, I can press bladestorm and let my team handle the rest of the cc / cross CC.

If something went bad during this process I had a handful of useful defensive cooldowns for different scenarios, some of which could be used offensively, and in general mostly abilities were on the GCD, and damage / healing were paced well so the game wasn’t insanely hectic (until maybe S8 PvE gear got involved).

All of this is to say, RSS is a cool game-mode. The queues are impossible. Plunderstorm is a great proof of concept. Retail PvP has long been irreconcilable with Retail PvE design decisions. I think if you want to restore your PvP audience to anything even remotely close to what it used to be both in absolute and relative terms… we just need to it to become it’s own game. Slightly simpler / deeper class designs (use WotLK as a blueprint), an easy onboarding process whenever you make a new character for selecting equipment etc., a nice social hub, or set of them, and various forms of PvP available to players, whether it’s arenas, the BR, BGs, or random events like walking over to a world hub gurubashi type place.

These games just do not belong together anymore and WoW PvP is entirely smothered by the weight of decades of decisions which cannot be undone with a few tweaks. The balance and philosophies have to be separated out, and then you can have a great and amazing PvP game (which may even feel like an MMO-lite depending how you want to handle it), but separate from the MMO.

4 Likes
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True

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If WoW PvP actually became it’s own thing, it would likely die. The leveling process and PvE in general are good coaching tools to step into arena/PvP. If it was a standalone game, I don’t think it would attract new players and existing players would just be more isolated from the already dwindling playerbase. I mean, I would love to be proved wrong though and see PvP stand on its own, but I just don’t see that happening.

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Lol once upon a time I would agree with you. Now the leveling process is devoid of any all life and social contact. It is a hyper-streamlined process that doesn’t really provide any relative challenge (you one shot everything while leveling) or teach you to use your kit, because your kit is mostly irrelevant.

There’s unlikely to be ANY world PvP… I just don’t agree at all. Unless you mean dungeon spam, I suppose that can teach you your rotation… anyways your point is moot in regards to my post because I’m saying they need to trim a lot of the fat and just focus on more depth with less buttons.

It’s also possible they can have a lengthy tutorial island which acts like a quick leveling process and slowly introduces your kit.

I don’t think we necessarily want as few buttons as Plunderstorm, but I think we want less buttons than retail, and you need to have a good number of those buttons provide multiple reasons for use.

For example, when charge had a stun on it, you can focus charge a cyclone, but that might cost you a valuable gap closer if miscalculated. It also might put you out of position, but it can also have been worth it to stop the cyclone depending on context.

In wrath, there were like four different ways to manage your Overpower procs as an Arms warrior. There was the max DPS way, the max burst way, the utility focused way, and a balanced approach between the DPS and utility. It’s one freaking ability, but because of how it interacted with a couple other passive talents, you had technically four ways to express it’s timing within your rotation.

This is doing more with less.

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Plunderstorm is literal trash and has 0 relation to PvP in WoW. I could see some specs having 1-2 buttons removed, but we don’t need a seperate game mode for that.

My point isn’t moot. Just because you chose a certain path, doesn’t mean everyone else has. I still level new toons just to learn the rotation. But ignoring that, you want a ‘tutorial island’ to help players? We went two months without seeing any real changes for DH and you think they are going to make all new content for PvP?

I’m all for new ideas, but let’s be reasonable.

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I mean, statistically…

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OP people have been asking for this since actual BC. You can find interviews of Neilyo and other esports players asking for this.

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It’s either leave the game dead as is, or innovate and build something great. You’re thinking way too small.

I don’t care if you don’t like Plunderstorm that wasn’t the point, I’ve been telling them to add classes to it for awhile (right now your build customization is almost totally random per match), but PS at least has an addictive gameplay loop that is accessible and can scratch the PvP itch to an extent. It’s more in line with how we game these days.

In order for someone who wants their WoW PvP itch to be thoroughly dealt with, they have to get through many more barriers to try and come back to retail or classic, and even in doing so, they might find by max level that the gameplay is just kind of purely degenerate as is the case with retail pacing (both in terms of key press pacing, and the actual damage / healing pace).

I’m all for the long grind full on sweaty build it up to tear it down MMO gameplay, I hope Ashes of Creation does great, but WoW never really was that game relative to other MMOs in the scene, and it certainly is not that game today. It’s trying to respect people’s time more, and that’s good… but there are still a few major roadblocks in the way.

Despite all the distance they have come with brushing up the UI, bringing back vendors (who ever thought that would be such a freakin ordeal), smoothing out the talents and all the of the other systems surrounding getting ready to play and playing itself… it is still lagging way behind any other PvP oriented game.

What WoW has to offer on the otherhand in terms of PvP is completely unique in terms of it’s IP, combat feel (when the balance isn’t crazy) , and various formats. Even if they made a standalone PvP game for WoW, it’s not really going to have to directly compete with LoL, Fornite, CS:GO etc. it is a totally unique platform for PvP, but the people who care about that and only that piece of this huge game, actually can’t access it, AND it can’t be done justice as long as it is aggressively chained to the PvE game. Even after PvP talents and multiple-faceted balance, that is not enough to do WoW PvP justice, and the participation absolutely shows it.

Sky is the limit, the question is really whether or not Blizzard has the wherewithal, and whether or not they actually like taking risks to make money lol.

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That doesn’t mean it wouldn’t die almost immediately.

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It’s just reality. Tons of players have been asking for literal table scraps for a decade and we can’t even get that. Again, I’m all for them investing in PvP, but clearly their aim is elsewhere.

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I believe it. I found myself in conversations about it with people back when Bloodline Champions was coming out and we were all playing on WOTLK arena tournament server (the official paid qualifiers, not the PS by the same name).

The chances of Blizzard doing it back then, and the incentive was low though. TBC PvP participation was a massive draw, the MMORPG format was much more in demand, and TBH for it’s time TBC and Wrath were pretty much as good of games as it was going to get.

The difference now is that they have a product that isn’t even coming close to saturating it’s full potential, AND they have better capability AND have shown some willingness to experiment (Plunderstorm). I’m just trying to put the gas pedal down, I want to play, but this game is a mess right now.

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I think game design has become too weak-aura dependent. Procs just shouldn’t be as impactful as they are. Game pace is also way off. Feels like both damage and healing are too high, creating an environment where health bars ping pong instead of gradually fall or rise.

WoW PvP would be great as its own game, but leveling brackets would need to be reworked and balanced.

I’d have 3 brackets: beginner, intermediate, veteran. Every time you move between brackets, you get new talents and spells. Beginner is basically level 20 gameplay. Intermediate is level lvl 40. Veteran is max. The first two brackets would be designed to gradually introduce players to how the game and their class works. Once you hit a certain honor level, you account only makes Veteran characters to prevent smurfing.

Ofc, gearing would need to be replaced. No more grinding for combat advantages.

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nah. i enjoy leveling, i enjoy there being a world outside of what im playing. i’m not a huge fan of being forced into it to get pvp gear, but the option is there if i ever feel like doing it.

i have hundreds of mounts, achievements, things i still may do some day. i spent a couple seasons in bfa just doing m+ that feeling of there being an entire world/universe disappears in a separate game. the only thing that exists in a game like that is the pvp. its just so one dimensional.

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didn’t read, just make rss where 3 dps can fight 3 dps and leave rest of the arenas alone.

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Great blog. No thanks tho.

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As the spec that would probably benefit the most out of this, I’ll say absolutely no.

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Healers ruin the game tbh.

Someone makes a positioning mistake? Nope, saved by some heals. Reset

Healer getting crushed in a timely stun?
Nope some passive proc BS saves them. Reset

Its really annoy. Just get heals out of pvp like tanks.

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bad news it wont ggs

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Money is what drives all Blizzard’s and every companies choices… Until PvP is the largest slice of the pie it’s not going to get the love it deserves…

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If mop remix is on separate retail servers they can give pvp the same treatment. I hope we see something like this happen in TWW