RPG vs Gameplay....Why not both? (Covenant Swapping)

[Tywín-illidan]

@Waidmann-gilneas

If being committed to one covenant is meaningful to you then yes it is but if being able to switch covenants to someone else is meaningful then that too is true.

Can I get an “Amen”!?

I don’t get why people think that meaning only matters based on their definition of the word and based around what THEY value in game.

[Eternosus-galakrond (Eternosus)]

@Ragartetarka-bleeding-hollow

Just curious - how do you feel about FFXIV that takes this in the other direction, where any one character can pretty much change classes?

Good question. Not having played that game, my intuition is that I would enjoy it. In WoW I actually achieve the same basic result by leveling characters of all classes. I’ve effectively dodged the class choice with alts.

However 12 classes x 4 covenants is too many combinations to alt up. I play a lot of alts, but I’m actually looking to scale back (maybe even go outside now and then)

( edit: I should add that my alts serve as their own little RP community in my head and that would be lost if it was all a single character, so I don’t look at the FFXIV method as strictly better )

[Waidmann-gilneas (Waidmann)]

THis here exactly

[Crîmsonrayne-proudmoore]

@Waidmann-gilneas

@Thyssalia-emerald-dream

But then you are actively punishing people who want to push multiple avenues of playing the game. Having the ability to change Covenants, or at least the abilities you can get from Covenants, doesn’t stop people who want to stick with one Covenant for RP and Story reasons.

THis here exactly

But some players find value in others having to play the game the way we want. The punishment is something players like Ralph, Argorwal, myself, etc. actually enjoy about the game.

If the system allows players to switch freely - this value for us goes away.

[Jessail-terenas (Jessail)]

@Crîmsonrayne-proudmoore

But some players find value in others having to play the game the way we want. The punishment is something players like Ralph, Argorwal, myself, etc. actually enjoy about the game.

Going to say this once: Shadenfrude is not a valid design philosophy. It is not constructive and is not helpful.

[Waidmann-gilneas (Waidmann)]

So your enjoyment comes from making others not enjoy the game?

Could you be any more of a pathetic person ?.

[Sabetha-turalyon (Sabetha)]

@Jessail-terenas

Eh… most of that is disabled in PvP. In Raiding (mythic) and M+ it should probably be too in all honesty. It’s actually quite small compared to most other player choices that can be more freely changed. Racials usually make up only 1-2% unless you’re an orc hunter. Class makeup… that’s a bigger issue and related to the core of the dispute here, blizz isn’t known for making things balanced.

Either way I don’t think hyperbole is (generally) constructive.

It’s mostly there to show the flaw in the logic of “but I’m not optimal so I’m hurting my progression. Oh…but not in this other area. That doesn’t matter, obviously”.

Clearly people are willing to accept choices about their characters that can’t be changed without rolling an entirely new character.

That suggests to me the core of the problem isn’t actually about being able to switch Covenants or not, it’s a concern that picking the “wrong” one will lead to underperforming.

Which means the Covenants need to be balanced properly more than anything.

@Jessail-terenas

Let me adjust that number to ~60% There is more than the top 1% that cares and wants to be their best. Even approx 60% is probably waaaay off and underestimating.

Side note: Thank you for being fairly reasonable.

I think the number is also going to be skewed by just how easy the game makes it to take the optimal path. Players will naturally gravitate towards the path of least resistance.

and like I’ve noted especially in areas like PvP even if you aren’t at a high level, you’re pretty heavily disadvantaging yourself by not switching to the optimal setup when you can do so for little to no cost as most other players will be doing that.

@Jalen-grobbulus

“We see you picked up your Lock instead of your Hunter. For doing this here’s your consequence”

The consequence is being better or worse at content depending on how Warlocks stack up against Hunters in that content(or even just an Aff Lock vs other specs of Lock).

The classes are not equal in all content, after all.

@Thyssalia-emerald-dream

But in most cases those two things are separate past the character creation screen.

Well I’ve already said I would rather the interesting and meaningful choice be at the character level.

But if it’s getting it as part of a throwaway mechanic for an expansion story or nothing at all, I’ll take the throwaway mechanic.

[Thyssalia-emerald-dream]

The key part is “allows”. No one would force you to switch.

[Waidmann-gilneas (Waidmann)]

Exactlly what I’ve been saying in these threads

[Crîmsonrayne-proudmoore]

@Jessail-terenas

Going to say this once: Shadenfrude is not a valid design philosophy. It is not constructive and is not helpful.

@Waidmann-gilneas

So your enjoyment comes from making others not enjoy the game?

Could you be any more of a pathetic person ?.

Ralph, Argorwal, and other players like us don’t design the system.

These forums allow us to be able to share our opinions about how and why we like the covenant system.

Just because your view and our view don’t align - that doesn’t mean that we’re wrong or that you’re right.

[Jessail-terenas (Jessail)]

@Sabetha-turalyon

That suggests to me the core of the problem isn’t actually about being able to switch Covenants or not, it’s a concern that picking the “wrong” one will lead to underperforming.

Which means the Covenants need to be balanced properly more than anything.

Correct, add in the fact that we have zero faith in blizzard being able to do that due to the combinatorial complexity of doing so. Hence generally people would feel more comfortable if covenants weren’t related to borrowed power (or borrowed power wasn’t a thing which is the best option).

[Thyssalia-emerald-dream]

@Sabetha-turalyon

Well I’ve already said I would rather the interesting and meaningful choice be at the character level.

But if it’s getting it as part of a throwaway mechanic for an expansion story or nothing at all, I’ll take the throwaway mechanic

Right, I understand that for you your characters choices are more important, but for me that’s not the case. For me, the value of Covenants are actually diminished due to them being tied to the abilities. I’d care more about the stories that each Covenant has to tell if they were just story choices and not playstyle choices. It’s just what we disagree on.

[Ursocat-area-52]

@Crîmsonrayne-proudmoore

But some players find value in others having to play the game the way we want. The punishment is something players like Ralph, Argorwal, myself, etc. actually enjoy about the game.

So the new target demographic around which the entire next expansion is designed is control freaks?

[Jalen-grobbulus]

@Sabetha-turalyon

The consequence is being better or worse at content depending on how Warlocks stack up against Hunters in that content(or even just an Aff Lock vs other specs of Lock).

The classes are not equal in all content, after all.

They aren’t equal. But there are pros and cons when playing them that span throughout all the content in the game that keeps them relevant. Some of these Covenant abilities are only going to be really good for PvP and the same as PvE.

[Waidmann-gilneas (Waidmann)]

A lot of us are asking that the abilities be removed from the covenants and put on a talent bar.

THat way we could use the talent that best works for whatever situation and yet be able to pick the covenant we want for the rp aspect.

[Crîmsonrayne-proudmoore]

@Ursocat-area-52

So the new target demographic around which the entire next expansion is designed is control freaks?

I can’t argue against that - but again, we’re not the ones designing the system.

We’re just here to express and communicate our support for it and why.

[Ursocat-area-52]

I guess it comes down to two different groups of people with a different definition of “player agency”.

For some it means…

• Being able to play the game the way they want to when they want to. These people have been asking for things like removal of reforging costs so they can play more roles.
• Making sure that others who do not rpg correctly are punished.

[Waidmann-gilneas (Waidmann)]

And the opposite is just as true . Your view doesn’t mean you are right or mine doesn’t mean I am wrong but to think anyone should have to play the same way another person does is like i said makes that person pathetic.

We should all enjoy the game how we enjoy it as individuals . Meaningful choices are subjective and any choice we make in this game no matter what anyone says , only affects those making the choice.

[Ursocat-area-52]

People who lay awake at night thinking that somewhere someone is having fun that they haven’t earned.

[Borgeous-mankrik]

If it were me,i’d just make it akin to aldor/scryers once you pick you’re stuck but if you really want you can turn around and grind out the rep from hated for the other side.