Because it doesn’t.
You don’t have to swap covenants to do any piece of content in the game. No content in Shadowlands at the highest-end is going to only be completeable based on your choice of covenant ability.
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It wouldn’t be so bad if the abilities weren’t so impactful, and at least in their current state, some are clearly outperforming others in more than just numbers. Make those fancy zone movement abilities part of the covenant, sure, but stuff that actually affects progression drastically shouldn’t be part of this choice.
and people will just stop playing if they aren’t enjoying the RPG experience either, so I think we can drop the threats of losing players here.
As far as I’m concerned choice that can be very easily changed on a whim is not meaningful.
It changes the choice, but it does so by removing it being a meaningful one.
Like I mentioned before: If this is such a big deal it sounds more like the content isn’t very well designed.
The covenants should not be so badly balanced that picking one of them makes it so you can’t clear even mythic content.
If we’re going to insist that any and all choices that affect how good our characters are need to be able to be changed on a whim, we might as well start asking Blizzard for free race/class changes so we can change those things too.
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How exactly are the RPG elements ripped out? I’ve also pointed out that you don’t have to switch Covenants, so how exactly is it less meaningful for you, personally, if other players can choose to switch their Covenants?
Yes it does. There are some Covenant class abilities that are 100% good for PvP and meh for PvE.
And that’s not the point. The point is that during progression you want to be able to perform as best as you can. Being anything less than that is slowing progression which will only cause frustration towards the restriction.
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This doesn’t remove the meaning behind the choices - it enhances them.
Having to think, plan out, consider group compositions, strengths’, weakness, etc. are things that many players enjoy and that add depth to the game. The ability to make choices across various kinds of content that impacts performance is very meaningful. Making those - meaningful choices.
Have 1 choice that you selected after checking icy-veins for what Method picks for their class dilutes and waters down the meaning behind a given choice when the system is made to be restrictive and punitive.
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Perhaps to you it isn’t, but to me it is. Having to think about how I want to gear up has great meaning to me. It’s like my character deciding what gear to put on to fight a dragon, it has deep meaning and ritual to me. Ruining how I play the game just because you disapprove of it isn’t ok, nor is nuking the RP from orbit.
No we can’t, because this is a bigger existential threat in my opinion than Azerite was at the beginning of BFA. This is the core borrowed power system, as such the very fact we’re arguing about it… tells me it’s a very very poor design decision. There is a very real possibility that blizzard’s “remedy” to that problem would be nuking the RP elements from orbit. I actually really don’t want that.
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Sure, but judging by their track record they will realize they really don’t know better than the players and will make sweeping changes by patch 9.2.
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An important part of RPGs is choices about character building that are meaningful.
Even if I don’t want to swap, it hurts my gameplay when I try to PvP and everybody else has immediately swapped to the most optimal setup for virtually no cost and they’ll do it again before they go off to raid later.
You’re basically trying to tell me in a competitive game it shouldn’t affect me if other people don’t have to make any hard choices about being optimal when they directly compete against me.
To be fair I already said I’d rather meaningful choice in this game be done at the character level and not another throwaway expansion mechanic.
but something tells me a thread about asking for things like talents to not be something we swap out between each boss fight and actually have hard choices would go over about as well as this covenant thing has.
Sorry - I’m not in favor of a restrictive system.
When you jump on the website once to see what the best covenant is - that makes the choice less meaningful.
When you actually get the chance to think about every piece of content you play and coordinate with your team about the choices you have available and ultimately choose - I think that makes the choices meaningful.
The former is also still available in a system where swapping is possible.
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I’m not stating that a Covenant choice is going to mean you can’t clear Mythic content. I’m stating that if you make the wrong choice it can slow down progression and cause frustration.
An example is Mythic Coven. The ideal strategy is to bring a bunch of Aff Locks since they all shared a health pool. Now our goal is to get Cutting Edge. Am I going to tell everyone not to even worry about it and try and brute force our way through, or am I gonna have us pick up as many Aff Locks and cleave classes that’ll give us an edge on the fight?
That’s the point I’m making. A Covenant choice is going to give you an edge in Raiding, M+ and PvP. These choices affect the higher level much more than players who are just casually raiding each week.
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Please stop.
It’s not meaningful and you know it. Stop trying to dance around the point under the guise of “enhancing” “player agency” when you’re quite aware that that’s not how it works.
When you can choose anything on a whim without issue, the choice stops having any sort of impact. This isn’t even covenant-specific.
I don’t see you complaining how you’re stuck as the class you’re as and not being able to change your class for that character at any rest area in order to best suit whatever kind of content you want to do.
I hate to break it to you, but you can be suboptimal and still do the highest-end content. Want proof? Look at right now. I sure can guarantee you that you specifically aren’t locked into specific essences and you can still do Mythic raids right now and complete them.
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I’m generally on the side of RPG over min-maxing, but I’m feeling skeptical about this design.
When I make an RPG choice, it’s entirely based on story/character/circumstances. The ability will simply be a random gift box at the end of it. And one way or another, I’m sure I’ll find the fun.
And yet, the choice is also being framed like an uber-talent row, even giving me a chance to play with each gifted ability before making a final decision. So I’m being encouraged to consider how the ability will impact my gameplay and then get the whole covenant as an add-on.
So I suspect that no matter what I choose, I’m going to be left feeling a little unhappy with it, that the road not taken might have been better. But we’ll see. I’m pretty good at predicting what I will and won’t enjoy, but I’m not perfect.
(as an aside, a lot of the arguments remind me of the arguments around profession perks)
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I agree, honestly I was fine with the older dual spec system. But honestly I think having it limited to rested areas makes sense, if we had player housing I’d probably say even limit it to that (talent swapping that is).
You assume I do that; you also are imposing your beliefs on me. Please stop.
That is precisely what I am doing, and precisely what those arguing for a punishing choice are trying to deny me the ability to do; in doing so that ruins my fun and my game.
I guess I just disagree with you all around. I’m not going to tell you you’re wrong, because this ends up being a matter of opinion.
But to myself, pretty much all of the players in my communities, and many others - the ability to switch and choose freely has a lot more meaning than being restricted.
Personally I don’t like being restricted to classes either - it seems needlessly redundant. I definitely prefer the FFXIV format - where they’re still an MMO-RPG that’s successful.
But I’ll deal with the class restriction in WoW. Having this combined with another restriction like covenants though - that ends up being a deal breaker for myself and a lot of other players.
Maybe it’ll be worth it to Blizzard though. If they think they can attract more players than they lose - then I can’t argue with that being a good business decision.
But my opinion is that having the ability to choose freely adds meaning to those choices and adds value to the game.
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Having certain class/race setups would also give you an edge in Raiding, M+, and PvP.
Arguably more so than a covenant choice.
Should Blizzard let us change those things around on a whim too?
Just curious - how do you feel about FFXIV that takes this in the other direction, where any one character can pretty much change classes?
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Those choices are much more often related to story purposes and much less related to player power.
They do. It takes seconds to log onto another class and pick up where you left off without having to relevel and regear it.
You can also race change in a matter of minutes.
That side steps the point that I’m putting forward. I don’t get punished for playing a different race or class.