Rogues feedback: You will hear us and you will like it!

In Development Ghosts of K'aresh PTR
1

The good so far in TWW:

  1. I like that the BlizZard team are stealth fixing many Rogue bugs that are not documented in patch notes. Nice and thank you for the welcomed surprises!

  2. Now that most Rogue bugs are under control we can examine class talents more fairly and closely.

Questions?/Concerns/Feedback

  • Cold Blood talent does not go on CD until a charge is consumed with a damaging finisher (Dispatch/Envenom for Fatebound Cold Blood talent Inevitable End). Is this a balance reason or this because of how Cold Blood is coded?

  • Many Rogue talent nodes in the general and spec specific tree require 2 point investments to progress down but there is limited pathing too. Can there be less limitations pathing down the tree or less 2 point nodes to help free up Rogues to pick up utility to actually feel like a Rogue?

  • Why are Rogue hero cap stones and most Rogue spec and general cap stones so underwhelming where in terms of value they are pretty close to talent at the top of the tree?

  1. Why is Assassination the only DPS spec in the game with no true defensive talent option in its own spec tree?

  2. Sub Rogue needs to have Backstab/Gloomblade do more damage if that is how players want to spec or talent that way and do not want to focus on finisher oriented builds.

  3. Outlaw needs some RTB/BF talents to have more flexibility in talent options like utility or interesting talent choices. Also having a playstyle that is non Crackshot related is a deeply asked request. KIR(Keep it Rolling playstyle) is close but it is hindered by the fact of the pathing issue and the inability to pick up enough of the RTB and BF talents.

The not so good in TWW:

  • Rogues lost a lot of PVP talents and the only replacement has been the Feint talent Pre-Emptive Maneuvers. Rogues need more PVP talents for all three specs.

  • Assassination single target energy even with the end of the expansion gear is still too low. This is because the spec has never been re-designed properly ever since it lost Relentless Strikes. The Rogue theory-craft community worked day and night to have Relentless Strikes baseline for all three specs. Having Relentless Strikes exclusive to only Subtlety is really hampering the flow of Outlaw and Assassination.

  • Lack of communication about where the class is heading and where it should go. We shouldn’t have to go to discord to find out what is happening with the Rogue class.

Discord is not affiliated with BlizZard, Activision or Microsoft.

  • Rogues can improve their aesthetic appeal to a wider WoW audience by having more access to cosmetic glyphs.

That is all and thank you for your time!

P.S. The new Killing Spree on the PTR does look nice but again there are too many drawbacks, opportunity costs and caveats attached to something that should be a straight up DPS CD like all other classes have. Especially one that is channeled at melee range where a lot can go wrong. :thinking:

:surfing_woman: :surfing_man:

6 Likes
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Good luck man

2 Likes
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“most Rogue bugs are under control” there’s ~20 affecting sub alone that are negatively impacting gameplay :man_facepalming:

5 Likes
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Also our class tree has 5 2pt nodes, all of which are in the bottom section so they aren’t exactly hindering anything outside of allowing access to every bottom-row talent, not limiting your ability to select utility talents.

Sub is a finisher spec, that’s literally what our mastery is so why would design attention be given to play antithetical to that?

1 Like
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Good feedback so far.

Keep them coming!

The devs made adjustments already to make Sub Rogues have the option to do more damage from CP generators so the precedent is there. Just because you like Sub being finisher focused doesn’t mean others will feel the same way.

:thinking: :+1:

:surfing_woman: :surfing_man:

1 Like
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that would be like asking for less dot damage for an affliction warlock, or less pet damage for beast mastery hunters.

2 Likes
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They already made Sub Rogues have option to do more damage from CP generators via talents so you are arguing with yourself.

:+1:

:surfing_woman: :surfing_man:

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I really want a choice node on Thistle Tea to remove the auto consumption portion of it.

1 Like
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if they have the option via talents why not just take those talents?

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People do and that is why there is room for more tuning up those talents that were adjusted during the mid expansion rework for Rogues during DF. It was a great start but more can be done.

Agreed a choice node of passive versus active for Thistle Tea would be good.

Keep the feedback coming!

:+1:

:surfing_woman: :surfing_man:

11

You currently have as many sub talents buffing builders as your other finishers

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As a result of the DF mid expansion rework. The tuning adjustments can be made for those talents though.

That is what players are asking.

Thanks but I think most of this feedback will be acted upon with the next patch after the launch of this patch in August IMO.

:+1:

:surfing_woman: :surfing_man:

13

The DF ‘rework’ is an unfinished (admitted by the dev themselves) grab bag of old Azerite powers, legendary effects, and covenant abilities. Most of those undertuned or ineffective builder talents shouldn’t be in the tree anyways because they don’t fit with the modern design direction of the spec.

1 Like
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Well they are slowly phasing out the old systemlands talents and it is unfinished so we have to see what the final picture looks like.

:thinking:

:surfing_woman: :surfing_man:

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While there are definitely some issues, like shadowheart, in the trees, I personally do not think they are that bad. The DF season 3 rework helped a lot most definitely, and the first TWW patch did some cleaning up of pain points. Are there things to fix? Of course there are. I think the trees are fine atm despite any remaining issues, though not perfect by any means.

The main issues I think remains is the hero talents. Without doing another long post about them like I did for assassination rogues, I think it is a huge injustice there has been no passes since beta. It is quite vexing, after hunters having a hero tree get what, its third pass?

Rogues had a pass in 11.0.5, which should have been fixes in Beta, not a patch after launch. After this, nothing? Hard to say devs are listening if the same points on hero talents have been stated since launch. Only one that was really addressed is killing spree atm


1 Like
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Yeah, hero talents being largely untouched for the expansion has been frustrating and the known issues with them are only being highlighted with the upcoming tier sets. From a subtlety perspective some of them, like bugged/odd interactions with Nimble Flurry, would add a notable bump in aoe damage which sub currently falls behind in. Escalating Blade capping at 4 and then the 4pc 2nd Coup blocking stacks for the duration is unnecessary friction that could be fixed by upping the stack cap or letting them stack during that 5sec buff. For Deathstalker, Fatal Intent being laughably undertuned and also not stacking sub-30% hp, Darkest Night completely blocking Deathstalker’s Mark consumption from other finishers which leads to conflicting rotational priorities due to interactions between the s3 tier set and Shadowcraft refunds, broken interactions between shadow damage in our spec kit and talents in the hero tree, all compound into a pretty gnarly mess. Not to mention the current aoe gameplay of cancelaura’ing Darkest Night because its hard-locked to Eviscerate and it does very little damage compared to Black Powder in appreciable target counts and can’t spatter its damage like Envenom for assassination.

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It isn’t just shadowheart as Thistle Tea is still an issue. Recuperator still has issues. Also needing multiple two point nodes to progress down the tree feels bad.

Hero talents being underwhelming is simply magnified by under powered cap stones in the general and spec specific trees.

:+1:

:surfing_man: :surfing_woman:

1 Like
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See, I personally do not think Thistle Tea is an issue. The auto activation is so low that you do not lose energy. I think the mastery buff is too fixated personally, but it is useful in high energy instances like assassination AoE. Most of the power comes from the energy, not the mastery, and it activating where all the energy is not wasted I do not think is a bad thing. They could add a choice node for passive activation and active activation if it was such a bad thing. Shadowheart remains the most ridiculous talent ever, and recuperator can be patched, even if it is pretty weak.

I do not thing the class or spec trees are in that bad of shape in any way shape or form. The hero talents not really being touched in any way shape or form is the main issue IMO. Killing spree was the last glaring issue in the class/spec trees (again not saying perfect, just nothing is overly glaring) and it was changed.

They really, really need to revamp hero talents at this stage. Not really any reason they should have put this off.

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I personally have no problem with using Thistle Tea as it is live. However several player use Thistle Tea primarily for the mastery and the energy is a secondary benefit.

For Sub and Outlaw it is very rare to be be using Thistle Tea charges with energy dropping so low to cause the auto trigger. For Assassination it can happen and this is something I do acknowledge.

Experienced Rogues even playing with Assassination can pool enough energy where they auto trigger does not happen. But I think that is a bit much at this point for a talent that should have the option to be on use versus just auto IMO.

Different players are different when they approach and use the same talent.

I think the spec trees and class talent tree need iterations, because what BlizZard started in DF mid expansion rework they left unfinished. Also, keep in mind the work that they did for the mid expansion rework was before they removed Inv. Shadow Dust from Sub. They did compensate Sub with some changes here and there for the removal of Inv Shadow Dust in early TWW, but they didn’t finish the job properly.

To be more specific they did remove Shadow Dance and put in place two charges of Vanish and also extend the duration of Subterfuge as compensation for the removal of Shadow Dance. But they didn’t consider that Assassination needs to be able to reduce the CD on Vanish or have a lower CD on it since it was increasingly becoming more stealth oriented with its game play for several expansions.

The hero trees come out and Deathstalker exacerbates this issue which is why I said the impact of unfinished work in the spec and general Rogue tree is impacting hero talents.

It could be argued if Shadow Dance was left alone that Assasination would work better with Deathstalker mechanics. But there are bigger problems leaving Shadow Dance in place for Assassination and Outlaw so I agree with BlizZard on this one.

However, removal of Shadow Dance and putting in place 2 charges of Vanish isn’t sufficient and that spills over to hero tree function.

Hero talents are bad and most of the Rogue community has said as much so I do not disagree there. But I think fixing hero trees doesn’t solve the glaring issue that Assassination has with not being able to use stealth moves as frequently. Or, Outlaw having poor synergy of Kspree being part of its tool kit (even the PTR version) with haste soft capping being forced in when they could make the new mastery centered around haste which also solves the channeling issues of the new Kspree.

So, even if they were to change the hero trees for the better because of the synergies between hero and general and spec trees there would have to be changes there too.

Especially true if they intend for hero trees to continue into the next two expansions. Can not ignore general and spec specific trees that have glaring issues.

What I am saying is that BlizZard has to put in the work to make hero trees shine and the foundation is the general and spec specific talent trees. Assassination is the only DPS spec in the game with no defensive talent, Outlaw has literally FOUR talents to reduce the RNG variance of RTB from tanking your DPS due to a bad roll. Sub has several under tuned talents and there is no reason to restrict Sub from having AoE potential due to the existence of M+. The days of pigeonholing Sub as a single target raiding DPS and Outlaw as a small target cap cleave spec are over when other specs can do both of what Sub and Outlaw specialized with 1/2 the effort and APM.

:surfing_man: :surfing_woman:

1 Like
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You keep posting this blatant lie.