Rogue's classic design and its issues with runes

WoW Classic Season of Discovery
1

Hello,

I simply wanted to compile the runes and their issues/problems, mostly caused by the rogue design in Classic. If you find some issues to the ones I found to be fine, please feel free to share your opinions and I will update this post. Keep in mind that this post is only for issues with the design of the rogue and not for the balance (damage, cooldown, energy costs, etc.)

First of all, I would like to take a moment to talk about the new role, rogues will be able to undertake. Tanking. As we all know, the rogueā€™s main issue is its inability to do any kind of AoE and to quickly change target. This poses a great issue when tanking dungeons. This could and might be solved with runes, later on, during the season (Letā€™s say, they might add a rune for Fan of Knives). But the biggest issue, might be the combo points tied to the target.

Now for the runes:

Pants Runes

Deadly Brew:
When you inflict any other poison on a target, you also inflict Deadly Poison.

  • Issues:
    None
  • Solutions:
    None

Just a Flesh Wound:
You take 20% reduced Physical damage while Blade Dance is active. Additionally, you have 6% reduced chance to be critically hit by melee attacks, the threat generated by all your actions is massively increased, and your Feint ability is replaced with Tease, which Taunts the target to attack you.

  • Issues:
    1- This rune requires 2 runes to work together.
    2- It requires to have combo points to gain the buff (Blade Dance). Main tanking in high end Raid will be a ā€œno goā€ since you might be clapped in the first few seconds of the fight without that buff.
    3- Rogues cannot swap target efficiently, since combo points are tied to the targets and not the rogue. This also exacerbate the AoE issue, that rogues do not have any AoE potential other than Blade Flurry.
  • Solutions:
    1- Make this a buff just like Righteous Fury or like Trick of the Trade (which would work in reverse, give the threat from the target to the rogue and also buff the rogue with stats given by Just a Flesh Wound), 30 min buff. With this, no need to set up with Blade Dance.
    2- Tie the combo points to the rogue instead of the target.
    3- Tie Just a Flesh Wound to Main Gauche instead. (Doesnā€™t resolve the 2 runes requirement issue)
    4- Add damage staggering to prevent 1-shots. (Later/Endgame)
    5- When you apply deadly poison past 5 stacks to your target, the subsequent doses spread to nearby enemies.
    6- Turn Distract into a Poison Bomb, applying a stack of Deadly Poison to all target in the zone. (Replacing the distract effect.)
    7- Add a method to redirect the current combo points from the existing target to the new target.
    8- When you parry it applies your weapons poison to your parried target.

Quick Draw
Draw your ranged weapon and fire a quick shot at an enemy, causing normal ranged weapon damage and reducing the targetā€™s movement speed by 50% for 6 sec. Awards 1 combo point.
Quick Draw benefits from all talents and effects that trigger from or modify Sinister Strike.

  • Issues:
    None
  • Solutions:
    None

Slaughter from the Shadows
Reduces the Energy cost of your Backstab and Ambush abilities by 20.
Engrave Gloves - Mutilate
Does not apply to Mutilate
Does not apply to abilities learned from other runes.

  • Issues:
    None
  • Solutions:
    None

Hands Runes

Main Gauche
Instantly strike with your off-hand weapon for normal off-hand weapon damage and increase your chance to parry by 10% for 10 sec. Awards 1 combo point.
Main Gauche benefits from all talents and effects that trigger from or modify Sinister Strike.

  • Issues:
    None
  • Solutions:
    None

Mutilate
Instantly attacks with both weapons for 100% weapon damage plus an additional (100 / 100 *) with each weapon. Damage is increased by 20% against Poisoned targets. Awards 2 combo points.
Mutilate benefits from all talents and effects that trigger from or modify Backstab unless otherwise specified.

  • Issues:
    None
  • Solutions:
    None

Saber Slash
Viciously slash an enemy for 130% weapon damage, and cause the target to bleed for (Attack power * 5 / 100) damage every 2 sec for 12 sec, stacking up to 3 times. Awards 1 combo point.
Saber Slash benefits from all talents and effects that trigger from or modify Sinister Strike.

  • Issues:
    None
  • Solutions:
    None

Shadowstrike
Teleport behind your target and strike, causing 150% weapon damage to the target. Must be stealthed. Awards 1 combo point.

  • Issues:
    None
  • Solutions:
    None

Shiv
Instantly attack with your off-hand weapon to deal normal off-hand weapon damage with a 100% chance to apply the poison from your off-hand weapon to the target. Slower weapons require more energy. Awards 1 combo point.
Shiv benefits from all talents and effects that trigger from or modify Sinister Strike.

  • Issues:
    None
  • Solutions:
    None

Legs Runes

Between the Eyes
Ranged Finishing move that causes damage per combo point, increased by Attack Power, and Stuns the target.
Cooldown shared with Kidney Shot.

  • Issues:
    None
  • Solutions:
    None

Blade Dance
Finishing move that increases your Parry chance. Lasts longer and grants more Parry chance per combo point.

  • Issues:
    None
  • Solutions:
    None

Envenom
Finishing move that deals instant poison damage based on your Deadly Poison doses on the target. Following the Envenom attack you have a 75% increased frequency of applying Instant Poison for 1 sec plus an additional 1 sec per combo point. One dose is activated per combo point.

  • Issues:
    1- Poisons have a finite amount of charges and might require to reapply them during long fights due to the increase frequency in applying poisons.
  • Solutions:
    1- Remove the charges on poison.
    2- Increase the number of charges.
    3- Remove the increase in frequency. (Less DPS, I presume)

To resume the whole thing (Since 95% of you wonā€™t be reading the post. :sweat_smile:)

  1. Combo points needs to be tied to the rogue and not to the target. This will alleviate some, but not all, AoE issues.
  2. Just a Flesh Wound needs to become a hard buff and not a combo point based buff via another rune. This rune is totally useless on its own. This is why Iā€™m leaning towards a ā€œReverseā€ Trick of the Trade buff instead of the current solution. Currently, this is like sending a Feral tank druid in caster form at a boss, let him fight a few seconds and then transform into a bear. Most likely the druid will be dead before even transforming.
  3. Rogues need to have some kind of AoE skill later on with runes and/or a method of generating threat to multiple mobs. Examples: Fan of Knives and/or ā€œReverseā€ Trick of the Trade. With ā€œReverseā€ Trick of the Trade, the rogue could put it on a mage or a healer to generate threat to all mobs regardless of the situation (AoE or not).
  4. Poisons, the new assassination build with mutilate and poisons will be jeopardize if the poisons remain with charges.

Cheers.

6 Likes
2

I would have to imagine that all of these issues stem from PvP. Giving Rogues 20% passive damage reduction and 6% crit supression would probably break the class in PvP. Same thing with Combo Points on the Rogue rather than the target. It has been an issue retail has been struggling with for nearly a decade and has lead to Rogues either becoming CC bots or unstoppable killing machines.

In retail, almost no consideration is given to PvP when it comes to class design. But the reverse seems to be the case for Vanilla/Classic.

2 Likes
3

Iā€™m very thankful theyā€™re balancing it this way too. Splitting class design only further separates the player base. PvP should, imo, be something everyone can feel good participating in, and not some exclusive separate game mode.

4

just because rogues are getting a ā€œtank runeā€ doesnā€™t mean that every single issue rogues have with tanking has to be resolved :expressionless:

5

All tanks but rogues have, at least, their tank buff (Druids, Warlock, Pally)/ stance (Warriors) at the start of the fight and they almost never have to manage it. But Rogues have to manage it with combo points and cannot start a fight with it active, so basically rogues do not have a true tanking spec yet. I do not mind having to manage it. but at least make it so we can start a fight with it active. Make Blade Dance an attack instead of a finisher, maybe? Tie the Just a Flesh Wound to Main Gauche instead?

Also Classes that uses mana or rage do not lose all their mana/rage every time they change target.

6

I would think, leave poison charges alone with the envenom buff: reason being, these are vanilla stats and health pools in pve and pvp. that frequency of instant poison application especially if talented for increased chance of poison application, results in an above average level of dps increase that requires nothing but using the finishing move, and the poison proc is passive, requiring no maintenance aside from monitoring your poison buff on your weapon.

asking for a change to poisons (charges, and/or removing charges) is asking for a free maintenance of a significant dps increase with no down-side, as you consider envenom ignores armor, as does instant posion.

It seems appropriate here to mention modern WoW and the iterations of assassination rogues in the context of modern WoW, in that I have to echo @Eviaeline in that if you are not careful, rogues become unstoppable killing machines, or become relegated to CC botting.

1 Like
7

Iā€™m assuming we donā€™t have to reapply poisons just like Wotlk.
If we do, thatā€™s a huge fail on Blizz.

8

warlocks get 5-6 runes worth with their tank rune lol

rogues get 0.5 as it requires another rune to even function ā€¦ blade dance should just be baked into the tank rune itself if it is required for it to even work ā€¦
Iā€™ll still be doing everything to make it work, but unless we get some help later, as you said - main tanking is a complete no-go and getting bad luck on avoidance could just mean a 1-shot.

My suggestions for later phases tank rogue runes:

  • something akin to brewmaster monks stagger mechanic for bad-luck protection, which would be also some-what fitting to the ā€˜just a flesh woundā€™ name.
  • when you take a hit for more than X% of current hp, the damage is reduce by X% and the rest taken at a DoT over X seconds.

to fix AoE issues:

  • Fan of knives, the most easy, and IMO most boring solution.
  • When you apply deadly poison to a target that has max stacks, that stack spreads to a nearby target
  • Turn distract into poison bomb, applying a stack of deadly poison to all targets
  • redirect combo points to new target. (i doubt we will see a combo points functionality rework)
1 Like
9

Echoing another suggestion i saw on rogue discord:

  • When you parry it applies your weapons poison to your parried target

Doesnt buff DPS rogues much, if at all, helps give tank rogues abit of AoE help

1 Like
10

I been doing a lot of studying with the talent treeā€™s, runes of power and seeing the best builds possible. Everything seems pretty solid for up to lvl 25 with the sole exception of Combat Rogue (Tank). 25% parry, 20% damage reduction, 6% crit chance reduction recieved, and the ghost strike of 15% dodge that lasts 7 seconds on a 20 second cool down is no where near enough to be even a viable dungeon tank let alone a raid. As far as I can tell up to lvl 25 rogues will not be able to tank regardless of these tank runes. More runes or reworks will be needed for them to be viable.

11

I think after going from retail to classic to back to wow the biggest rogue take away I had was holy smokes combo points are bad and so limiting in classic it ainā€™t even funny.

I honestly think if they are going to start playing with classes some of the QOL that has just been a MASSIVE improvement needs to be ported over.

Combo points are one of those things

12

I wouldnt assume anything.

13

Meh, rogues are already such a squishy class with no ranged that they get blown up if they even think about joining a group fight. Even if we had a 20% DMG reduction buff it probably wouldnā€™t be that OP, especially considering rogue playstyle is based on control, not taking damage and doing massive burst damage. Slaughter from the shadows would still probably be stronger than a flat 20% damage buff seeing as itā€™s effectively a 30% reduced resource cost on one of your hardest hitting abilities and thus a 20% or so damage output increase depending on playstyle.

1 Like
14

I dunno. I did swords on a combat rogue and with slice-and-dice I could easily grab threat l from groups.

I never got to raid, but i went through most dungeons in Vanilla like that

15

I donno why but no matter what I can never happen to agree to any sort of buff to rogues in any expansions. The class always feels OP by natureā€¦

16

The way combo points currently work and the lack of AoE threat gen is definitely concerning. Weā€™ll have to see how things play out, but it might turn out to be a rough time for rogue tanking at level 25. Even worse if you want to tank and need to spec for it but arenā€™t able to dual spec since rogues will need to more heavily rely on talents for tanking than other classes that are getting insanely strong all-in-one tank runes.

17

mut/env issues solved, thanks blizz !
Deadly Brew

2 Likes
18

I like this solution for the AoE problem

To help a little with the mitigation problem a change could also be made to Just a Flesh Wound to make it more similar to the druid rune, that would be 10% base mitigation and an additional 10% when Blade Dance is active.

19

Youā€™ve missed some issues with Envenom and saber slash. Dots that have stacks can only have one instance of the debuff on a target. In vanilla this was just sunder and deadly poison and since no one ran deadly poison due to the debuff limit this was a non issue. In SoD your one dps leg slot rune, envenom, requires you to have your own instance of deadly poison on the target in order to even function. This means that if there is more than one rogue in the raid only one of the dps rogues will actually be able to make use of the leg slot rune at all. For all other rogues the leg slot rune is a dead slot.

There is a similar issue with saber slash wherein the rogue who applies the dot first is the only rogue who gets to make use of the bleed. This type of functionality doesnā€™t exist with any other dot in the game save for ignite and deep wounds which gain increased damage with each additional warrior/mage but saber slash and deadly poison simply refresh the duration of their dots and do not gain any additional damage with more rogues.

2 Likes