Rogue Talent Feedback (Nov 2024) -- 20 Suggestions (I've been Cookin')

Classes Rogue
1

Proposed Talent Changes

  1. Introduce a new talent positioned just below Thrill Seeking on the class tree:

Grappling with Shadows - Passive
Assassination - Shadowstep’s cooldown is reduced by 33% when used on a target affected by your Garrote.

Outlaw - Reduces the cooldown of Grappling Hook by 15 sec and increases its retraction speed.

Subtlety - Shadowstep’s cooldown is reduced by 20% and its maximum range is increased by 20%.

(Note: Replaces Intent to Kill, Retractable Hook, and Quick Decisions on their respective spec trees)

  1. Make Deeper Strategem (class tree) a 2-point talent and move it into the spot currently occupied by Subterfuge (class tree). Remove and/or replace Sanguine Strategem (Assassination), Devious Strategem (Outlaw), and Secret Strategem (Subtlety) from their respective spec trees.
  2. Make Subterfuge (class tree) a 1-point talent which grants a 4 second benefit and place it beneath Shadowrunner (class tree), replacing Shadowheart (class tree).
  3. Move Without a Trace (class tree) beneath Elusiveness / Cheat Death (class tree).
  4. Move Numbing Poison / Atrophic Poison (class tree) to the position currently occupied by Master Poisoner (class tree).
  5. Combine Master Poisoner (class tree), Improved Wound Poison (class tree), and Superior Mixture (class tree) into a single talent placed into the current position of Improved Wound Poison (class tree):

Superior Mixtures - Passive
Crippling Poison: Reduces movement speed by 70%, or 90% with Shiv.
Wound Poison: Stacks 2 additional times, Shiv temporarily applies 8 stacks.
Numbing Poison: Slows attack and casting by 20%, or 40% with Shiv.
Atrophic Poison: Reduces damage dealt by 4%, or 8% with Shiv.

(Note: Convert Wound Poison (baseline poison) into a non-lethal poison with no damage component (baseline) as part of introducing this talent. Otherwise, it’ll likely remain largely unused as a Lethal Poison competing with higher damage options.)

  1. Introduce a new choice node talent and place it into the position currently occupied by Superior Mixture (class tree):

Wide Dosage - Passive (Choice 1)
Fan of Knives, Blade Flurry, and Shuriken Storm have a 100% chance to apply your Non-Lethal Poisons to all targets they hit.

Dragon-Tempered Blades - Passive (Choice 2)
You may apply 1 additional Non-Lethal Poison to your weapons.

(Note: Wide Dosage introduces the utility provided through Night Terrors (Subtlety tree) or Thrown Precision (Assassination tree) to all classes in a way that synergizes better with other poison-oriented talents. Moving Dragon-Tempered Blades (Assassination tree) into the class tree and having it only apply to Non-Lethal Poisons opens up a lot more utility options for Rogues in general while creating some interesting tension with Wide Dosage. As a result, Night Terrors (Subtlety tree), Thrown Precision (Assassination tree), and Dragon-Tempered Blades (Assassination tree) are either modified or removed from their respective spec trees.)

  1. Introduce a new capstone talent into the place where Without a Trace (class tree) is currently positioned. While there are lots of potentially good ideas of what could go here, this is one example that would flow well with the changes to Deeper Strategem (class tree) mentioned above in point #2:

Exhilarating Execution - Passive
For every combo point spent on your finishing moves, they deal 1% additional damage and heal you for 1% of the damage dealt. At full health gain shielding instead, absorbing up to 10% of your maximum health.

(Note: The Exhilarating Execution (Subtlety tree) talent would need to be replaced or removed as a result. The damage component of this proposed talent helps it to compete with other existing throughput-oriented talents while thematically complimenting the revamped Deeper Strategem (see point #2) mentioned earlier.)

  1. Introduce a new capstone talent into the place where Deeper Strategem (class tree) is currently positioned. While there are lots of potentially good ideas of what could go here, this is one example based off its position beneath Alacrity (class tree):

Swift Slasher - Passive
Slice and Dice grants additional attack speed equal to 100% of your Haste.

(Note: Swift Slasher (Outlaw tree) would be removed or replaced as part of making this talent available to all specs)

  1. Replace Rushed Setup (class tree) with the following talent:

Dirty Tricks - Passive
Kidney Shot, Cheap Shot, Gouge, Sap, and Distract no longer cost energy.

(Note: This would likewise result in Dirty Tricks (Outlaw tree) being remove or replaced)

  1. Combine the effects of Featherfoot (class tree) into Unbreakable Stride (class tree) and move it into Featherfoot’s current position.
  2. Introduce a new choice node into the current position of Unbreakable Stride (class tree):

Vocal Suppression - Passive (Choice 1)
Shadowstrike, Ambush, and Garrote silence the target for 5 sec when used from Stealth. Enemies silenced in this manner deal 15% less damage.

Kick in the Teeth - Passive (Choice 2)
Kick also silences the target for 3 sec on a successful interrupt.

(Note: Leverages the utility offered through Iron Wire (Assassination tree) and makes it available for all Rogues. The new Kick in the Teeth talent offers a variation that isn’t reliant on Stealth.)

  1. Combine the effects of Hit and Run (Outlaw tree) into Fleet Footed (class tree). Replace Hit and Run (Outlaw tree) with something else.
  2. Introduce a new talent positioned just below Evasion (class tree):

The Long Game - Passive
Poisoned Knife, Pistol Shot, and Shuriken Throw have their range increased to 35 yards and they reduce the damage the target deals to you by 5%.

(Note: A generic and slightly improved version of Precision Shot (Outlaw tree) as part of moving utility options into the class tree. This would require Precision Shot (Outlaw tree) to be replaced.)

  1. Move the Cloaked in Shadows / Fade to Nothing (Subtlety tree) choice talent node onto the class tree, positioned just below where Unbreakable Stride (class tree) currently is.
  2. Relocate Shrouded in Darkness (Subtlety tree) onto a choice node with Stillshroud (class tree). Or, just combine the effects of both into a single talent. Thereafter, remove or replace Shrouded in Darkness (Subtlety tree).
  3. Combine the effects of Ephemeral Bond (Subtlety tree) into Iron Stomach (class tree). Or place it as a choice node option. Thereafter, remove or replace Ephemeral Bond (Subtlety tree).
  4. Introduce a new talent into the place currently occupied by Numbing Poison/Atrophic Poison (class tree) based off Terrifying Pace (Subtlety tree). Here’s an example:

Hit and Run - Passive
You gain 5% additional movement speed for every unique enemy you have damaged within the last 3 seconds, stacking up to 4 times.

(Note: Terrifying Pace (Subtlety tree) would likewise need to be removed or replaced.)

  1. Make Gouge (class tree) baseline for all Rogues, then put Blinding Powder (Outlaw tree) competing with Airborne Irritant (class tree) on that choice node.
  2. Replace Virulent Poisons (class tree) and Tight Spender (class tree) with more interesting talent options (or just remove them altogether). Here are some ideas to replace them with:

Virulent Poisons - Passive (reworked)
Enemies afflicted by any of your lasting weapon poison effects increases the chance for you to apply your weapon poisons against them and enemies near them by 5%. This effect stacks.

Your Lethal Poisons also deal 10% increased damage.

Tight Spender - Passive (reworked)
Spending any amount of combo points will grant you 7% increased energy regeneration for every combo point missing below your maximum. This effect lasts until you spend combo points, reach maximum energy, or reach maximum combo points.

What would the trees look like with these suggestions?

No pathing changes have been suggested, just talents and/or their positions (though some new talents would be placed directly beneath other existing talent positions).

Rogue class tree (by row):

  1. (no changes) Shiv, Blind, Cloak of Shadows
  2. Evasion, Blinding Powder (new)/Airborne Irritant, Thrill Seeker
  3. Numbing Poison/Atrophic Poison (repositioned), The Long Game (new), Elusiveness/Cheat Death, Grappling with Shadows (new), Tricks of the Trade/Blackjack
  4. Superior Mixture (new), Nimble Fingers, Without a Trace, Improved Sprint, Shadowrunner
  5. Wide Dosage/Dragon-Tempered Blades (new), Fleet Footed (improved), Iron Stomach (improved), Vocal Suppression/Kick in the Teeth (new), Unbreakable Stride (new), Dirty Tricks (new), Subterfuge (new)
  6. Hit and Run (new), Deadened Nerves, Cloaked in Shadows/Fade to Nothing (repositioned), Graceful Guile, Stillshroud/Shrouded in Darkness (new)
  7. Deadly Precision/Virulent Poisons (reworked), Acrobatic Strikes, Improved Ambush/Tight Spender (reworked)
  8. (no changes) Leeching Poison, Lethality, Recuperator, Alacrity, Soothing Darkness
  9. Vigor, Supercharger, Deeper Strategem (new)
  10. Thistle Tea, Cold Blood, Echoing Reprimand/Forced Induction, Swift Slasher (new), Exhilarating Execution (new)

Assassination spec tree:

Devs are welcome to come up with good talent ideas to fill in the gaps created.

  • Thrown Precision utility removed.
  • Intent to Kill removed.
  • Iron Wire removed.
  • Sanguine Strategem removed.
  • Dragon-Tempered Blades removed.

Outlaw spec tree:

Devs are welcome to come up with good talent ideas to fill in the gaps created.

  • Retractable Hook removed.
  • Dirty Tricks removed.
  • (Combat Stamina should probably be relocated onto the class tree too)
  • Hit and Run removed.
  • Blinding Powder removed.
  • (Float Like a Butterfly should probably be relocated onto the class tree too)
  • Precision Shot removed.
  • Devious Stratagem removed.
  • Swift Slasher removed.

Subtlety spec tree:

Devs are welcome to come up with good talent ideas to fill in the gaps created.

  • (Shot in the Dark should probably be removed or relocated onto the class tree)
  • Quick Decisions removed.
  • Ephemeral Bond removed.
  • Exhilarating Execution removed.
  • Shrouded in Darkness removed.
  • Cloaked in Shadows/Fade to Nothing removed.
  • Night Terrors/Terrifying Pace removed.
  • Secret Stratagem removed.

TLDR

Please move utility from the spec trees into the class trees. Some other “Rogue-centric” changes could be done too. All of this could free up room for each of the Rogue specs to be more variable and dynamic than they currently are.

3 Likes
2

Get out the kitchen and never attempt to cook again.

1 Like
3

Interesting take but I would move in the opposite direction. Keep the utility in the spec trees and add more utility for Assassination Rogue in its own class tree as it lacks defensives.

The general tree should have more of the active buttons and energy saving talents.

:surfing_man: :surfing_woman:

1 Like
4

Not a fan of poisoned cuisine I see. Tis’ a shame, as a Rogue. Did you even try the dish? What don’t ye’ like 'bout it?

All other class trees have been moving the direction of front-loading their utility and defensives onto the class tree itself so that they’re not competing with so many throughput talents. Rogue is a bit of an odd duck in that much of their class tree is loaded with throughput talents (causing many utility talents to be displaced onto the spec trees).

From a game design perspective, having utility bloat the spec tree doesn’t feel good (particularly when those options are forced onto the earlier levels of the spec tree) and contributes to the bogged down experience of leveling a Rogue. Rogues would feel smoother to level if their energy regeneration talents were at the top and they didn’t have to wade through several levels of strictly utility on both sides of their talent trees.

What I “cooked up” here aims to alleviate some of those concerns without suggesting a massive overhaul.

2 Likes
5

Half these changes just serve to homogenize the specs. I get the sentiment of wanting weaker talents removed but they first of all need replacements after removal and secondly, not every talent translates well to every spec.

Also you put in all that work just to keep Thistle Tea? Naw.

1 Like
6

I mean, I could’ve gone a lot further and suggested a revamp to the entire class design, tree, baseline abilities, the whole shebang. But at the very least, some QoL improvements could be done.

Should the “identity” of the Rogue spec derive entirely from their damage profile, utility, or both? If utility is supposed to play a role in the spec’s identity, it’s possible for each spec to have slightly different versions of certain talents within the class tree (several class tree revamps for other classes has done this).

1 Like
7

As always thats personal preference. I feel it should be both. The garrote silence just feels nice on Sin in a way that making Shadowstrike do the same for Sub would not. But Sub already has Dance (needs to go back into class tree btw) so it can spit out stuns in a way thats fitting for that spec.

1 Like
8

I could see that suggested talent node in the class tree changing out based on the spec. For example:

Iron Wire - Passive (Assassination)
Garrote silences the target for 5 seconds when used from Stealth. Enemies silenced by Garrote deal 15% less damage.

I’m a Professional - Passive (Outlaw)
Sap no longer has combat, stealth, or target type restrictions. Using Sap during combat or outside of Stealth invokes a 20 second cooldown and reduces its duration by 90%.

Shots in the Dark - Passive (Subtlety)
Cheap Shot reduces the cooldown of Shadow Dance by 10 seconds.

1 Like
9

Homogenization off the specs is why BlizZard doesn’t do this because what is the point?

I am not against Sub Rogue and Outlaw Rogue having garrote again for example but what will make the specs different under your proposed changes?

You are basically saying only DPS rotations will be the different between specs.

But even if you look at classic versions of the game each spec did have unique utility. Assassination had Prey on the Weak mechanic, Combat had Nerves of Steel/Silence from Kick/Deadly Throw and Sub had shadow step/Prep.

:surfing_woman: :surfing_man:

1 Like
10

The reason the talent trees were redesigned the way they were going into Dragonflight is because Blizzard wanted to move away from “36+ totally different classes” and lean a bit back more toward “a class should feel like a class regardless of what spec it chooses”.

Warrior? Arms uses one weapon, Fury uses two weapons, Prot uses sword and board. The utility is effectively the same across the board aside from Prot because it’s filling a different role.

Warlock? Demonology summons lots of demons, Destruction has big nukes, and Affliction does DoTs. Their utility is the same across each (with the biggest difference being the Felguard as a primary pet for Demonology). Their damage profiles are their biggest difference where the majority of the spec fantasy is embraced.

Hunter? Similar story. The damage profile changes, but the rest of the utility really doesn’t aside from Lone Wolf, Exotic Pets, and Melee.

Mage? The damage profile is almost literally the only difference between the 3 specs. Almost all utility is (rightfully) in the mage class tree.

Rogue is the only class that has such an abundance of utility mixed into their spec trees while drowning in throughput talents on their class tree. Having throughput talents on the class tree actually homogenizes the class specs more, not less.

2 Likes
11

BlizZard has to unprune more things for that to happen for Rogues like returning Garrote to Sub and Outlaw. Also the biggest reason why the utility is segregated and not all in one general tree is because of PVP implications.

:surfing_woman: :surfing_man:

1 Like
12

I know that Rogues are traditionally a very PvP-friendly class (yay Stealth), but Blizzard has already worked on implementing PvP-specific modifiers for abilities and such for a long time and could just as easily impose limitations on Rogues (CC’s or otherwise) when engaging in PvP combat.

Rogues’ PvE gameplay doesn’t need to suffer due to PvP concerns, nor does PvP gameplay need to suffer due to PvE concerns.

2 Likes
13

The fundamental problem is when you give all specs access to the same utility or mostly there is a danger of the specs becoming similar.

Shadow Dance is a good example which is why the devs chose to remove it.

:surfing_woman: :surfing_man:

14

:face_with_raised_eyebrow: Then why do we have a ghetto replacement doing the same thing but worse you absolute dummy?

Cut the projection.

15

op wants to make DTB available to all rogue specs
but in a weaker variant
leaving assa in the dust

cook again my friend, cook some more, turn up the heat

if anything DBT should be moved up the assa tree
it’s pure trash on its own, the power it has is derived from other talents, whether it’s amp poison or kingsbane, but DBT without them is nothing

2 Likes