I would really like to know why so many classes have solid self sustain for things like delves. but the one spec on rogue who had some (sub) is now losing that as well?
delves will be practically impossible on this class at any reasonable level. Crimson vial is all that’s there?. soothing darkness only on vanish? so a 30% heal once per 2 minutes.
Can you name any other class except maybe boomie with such bad sustain? Even they can gain it if they drop out of form between pulls, or bear form mid fight if absolutely required (plus range so kiting/cc). pretty sure even warriors get more self healing than that with stuff like victory rush. . . I’m rather confused here.
edit: it’s already lost the healing while stealthed between pulls/packs even just for some regeneration. and slice n dice is only 1% per 3 seconds which is horrifically low. (didn’t it used to be 1% per 1 second?)
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Mage. How did it not occur to you mage has actually zero sustain and elites+bosses are immune to roots/snares?
But it’s true, Iron stomach should be baselined and you could stand to increase leeching poison to 5-7%.
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mage has shields, AoE stuns/freezes. and can reverse time after any big hit to take zero from it on a moderate CD. . . . but ya probably similar? if they were melee it would be problematic.
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You realize the shield is not a heal, it lasts for maybe 3 mob autoattacks, and bosses are immune to roots+snares?
Alter Time is a 50 sec cd. Crimson Flask is a 20% hp on nearly a third of the cd, so you’re not healing much less over 50 seconds.
Your cloak makes you immune to magic and debuffs while being able to attack, your evasion lets you be immune to melee mobs, and you have 2 vanish charges for another % hp heal each.
And all the while 3% of your damage is getting converting to healing.
And by the way, because you are melee, you have half the cooldown on an interrupt for those 3 million damage web bolts nerubians love to cast.
Rogues have good survival for group content. Delves will never be balanced because solo PvE survival has never really been a thing that mattered for any content until now. You can’t just start adding big self sustain to all classes because that messes with the whole game.
What they need to do for delves is what they did for the mage tower…. Tune the entire zone around your spec when you enter. I believe I remember mage tower having different damage / mob HP per spec.
You think they would’ve figured this out with Torghast where the answer was just be a tank spec. It’s ridiculous that they continue to fall into the same design pitfalls, when they advertise these as solo options. Given, it is the first week of higher delves and it’s probably trivialized to a degree by gear and Brann levels.
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What they need to do is just tune Brann with spec speficic auras so he heals accordingly for specs that need sustain instead of a DPS Brann, but even then it’s just a tax on specs with low self sustain vs. mongo DK’s and ret paladins and fury warriors because those get to sustain just fine and do delves much quicker by virtue of being able to run a DPS Brann.
Whoever thinks they will individually tune delves per 34+ specs is delusional. They don’t even bother to balance intra-class specializations, hero talents are 20-30% apart in performance as we speak.
Classes that are weak at solo will need to group.
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i’m not talking about adding. they’re subtracting from one that’s already very very low. they’re changing the healing from shadow dance to only apply to vanish and not shadow dance.
It doesn’t even make sense to me, since you can nerf it’s pvp value to keep it balanced there. and the pve impact is already minor outside outdoor content, and perhaps delves. so I don’t see any place where it’s been reasoned out.
Yeah that change is a tricky one for me.
On one hand, I support bringing the survivability of all three rogue specs closer to the same page which this change does. But I also know rogue survival is one of the worst in the game for solo PvE so any nerf to self sustain is just wrong.
If only all specs still had shadow dance…
they tried that lol. at the same time as making outlaw more based around stealth than the other 2 (with the exception of deathstalker). . . that was interesting.
and giving dance to assassination would just be a garrote reapplication or deathstalker hero talent application. . . overall not the most positive.
rogue has good ways of handling burst damage on intervals. but their ablity to mange rot or anything open world is . . piss poor at best. That said, they’re such a bursty class that even most elites don’t survive long enough for it to bee much of a threat. maybe at least re-introduce the extra healing while in stealth/out of combat back to it? so we can still heal up between fights. (outside rbg’s that’s also balanced in pvp. if you let the rogue re-stealth the 5-10% hp they get before opening again isn’t going to change much. healer still exists as does dampening).
survival wise, assassination was the only one behind. dance for 15% hp for sub was decent enough. since you’d usually get 2 for an elite or something. where outlaw has vanish also on a somewhat short cd, but also has it’s major physical defensive up far more often as well due to restless blades. sin was the only one that was severely limited, now it’s both sin and sub. Ironically it’s a buff to outlaw who vanishes often, and still gets evasion on a low cd too.
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Yeah it feels horrible right now because they nerfed everything.
They nerfed leeching poison multiple times. They nerfed recuperater. They nerfed shadow dance healing.
Rogues could definitely use some sustain for PvE. It shouldn’t be an issue for PvP because they can easily add PvP multipliers onto whatever they want.
2 Likes
agreed. it’s really questionable. like i don’t even understand why they’re removing it. . . it isn’t the argument with tanks of being more reliant on healers. as it’s trickle healing to help with rot damage, or a small amount during burst which you aren’t really controlling in raid encounters. It’s only 2 impacts are pvp burst windows where you become a little more tanky, or open world elites. and blizz is very open to tuning those differently. can just delete it’s healing in pvp if they don’t want it. . . but it makes no sense
Mage has imo more sustain than outlaw and assassin, but yes it’s also a very squishy class. I’m not sure there’s a huge benefit to compare which of the two is more miserable to solo.
rogue def . . at least in frost case. i dont’ have issues with frost mostly because slow + glacial spike burst before they can even get in range to respond. . . you rarely take damage.
and the few instances you have bosses. you get double 70% dr + 50% heal (cold snap). on top.
I haven’t played my mage yet this expansion but I’m not quite sure whether I’d consider fire or outlaw squishier from my early (disastrous) experiences in the dragon isles.
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ironically outlaw is one of the tankier rogue specs. since it lowers evasions cd just through standard rotation. so you have it frequently.
It was certainly nicer when we didn’t have to concentrate on a haste threshold and could stack vers, too. But Rogue needed a haste tax though because…reasons…and no scaling was really done outside of it. Somehow WW Monk was designed with haste more in mind though in their rework.
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Rogue in delves is actually easier for me versus my demon hunter. The amount of CC is too good. Sap and blind adds. 8 second kidney kill target. And cheap shot being buffed to 6 seconds going to be even easier.
Aslo a huge tip i don’t like sharing in fear of it getting nerfed. You can tricks of the trade bran. And with ticksters talent making it a 1hr buff, you have a perma tank/healer.
I personally use dps bran when I can cause he melts mobs.
Can’t play rogue like an ARPG at higher tiers. You have to play well… like a rogue. Tactics and CC.
That’s every DPS that doesn’t have massive self healing and defensives.
My windwalker monk needs to pull single enemies or packs no more than 2-3.
If there are two casters in the pull, I’ll likely have to blow a big defensive.
But since my Brann is lv34 I mostly pull with crackling jade lightning and let him take aggro while I burn down the caster of the pack.
Waxface I let him dps for the first 20% hp so I don’t pull aggro for the rest of the fight.
The only real rough one is the beetle with his stinging swarm. If I don’t get lucky with my burst of cd’s at 603ilv it can still be a close kill as I exhaust touch of karma and stoneskin elixir and diffuse magic for each stinging swarm.