Hey guys,
What’s the best build to use for a subtlety dagger rogue? Like for high burst damage in pvp? Is there anything like this using a lot of the subtlety tree?
Just off the top of my head maybe something like this:
https://classicdb.ch/?talent#fbe0oxZhfZE0ecc0R
Keep in mind a PvP rogue is more about control than damage. Preparation is pretty much the cornerstone of any rogue PvP build. Stealth talents are also vital as getting that opener off is very important as well as LoSing for that re-stealth.
A couple of changes to suggest:
Combat: Move two points from lightning reflexes to imp. sinister strike. Yes, it’s daggers but in PvP you can’t rely on positioning as much and you’ll like the cheaper SS. You won’t miss the 2% dodge.
Subtlety: Remove Dirty Deeds (you will be using ambush since you have imp ambush) and remove Initative (you’ll need the points)
Assassination: Take the five points from Subtlety and put 2 into Murder, 1 to Imp Evis, 1 in something else, leaving you with one point in Cold Blood.
In the end you’ll have a 21/8/22 build like:
https://classicdb.ch/?talent#fhebotzZGcZE0xcc0o
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Oh yeah, cold blood. Duh!
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Seal fate daggers used to be pretty great in PvP back in the day. I went hemo/swords personally. This time around I’m going daggers, probably SF with a few points in combat for improved sprint / lowered cooldown. Might also put 5 points in sub for extra backstab damage.
A properly geared Rogue, by the way, is capable of haunting damage numbers. The only class capable of dealing more is the Warrior with a Fury spec. Contrary to what was posted earlier Rogues are about both damage and control.
Edit: don’t waste 10 points in sub just to improve stealth, spend 5 points max. Think about it - The opener is a small part of the fight, even smaller against a properly geared opponent who has extra stamina and therefore more HP. You can also use distract to spin your opponents around or sap to lock them down and make getting the opening hit a guarantee. Personally, if you must do it, put 5 points in camo for the extra speed while stealthed, but ignore master of deception.
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Correct, but control is what really gives a rogue an edge. Anyone can mash backstab. But what distinguishes a good rogue from a bad one is their ability to effectively control through well placed saps, blinds, gouges and stuns.
Stealth is a rogue’s single greatest asset in PvP. You absolutely want the best stealth possible. I played a rogue for over 10 years. I might be a bit rusty on my vanilla PvP specs, but I can tell you in PvP you’re going to want these 10 points in stealth.
Stealth isn’t just a rogue’s opener. A good rogue will re-stealth multiple times in a single battle and also abuse LoS when needed to get a re-stealth to survive. It’s both offensive and defensive and gives you additional control through sap and cheap shot.
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Yup, I used to do flag defense in a WSG premade. I put 5 points in camo for the speed increase. There was no need for MoD, throwing down distract was usually enough to spin someone around straight into your cheap-shot.
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21/8/22. The problem is with sub. Assass is pretty basic. Build up evisc, ruthless, relent, malice, lethality. Then fill in which type of poison you want but only x3. Usually imp poison is better.
Don’t do lightning reflexes in combat to fill to bs. You don’t ever want to be in a situation where you need to dodge. You want to always be controlling through stun. With imp ss you can cs, ss, then gouge to energy regain and have a nasty ks with energy to unload hell through it.
Sub is the hard tree and where personal preference comes in. I’d avoid imp ambush and take imp sap instead. If you want to gank someone and you know ambush will kill them, you can cold blood ambush and it will be worth it.
5 mod will give you a bit of edge against other rogues to get the opener. Camo is an absolute must so you can get back to a restealth faster. But that depends on how you play. If you want to bleed kite the best geared warrior on your server for massive troll material, you’ll need it.
Lot of good rogue specs tho. PvP wise I just feel 21/8/22 is hard to top. Not a great bg/team spec. It’s more like the 1v1 god mode spec.
Without MoD you will lose the opener against other stealth classes every time. It’s a pretty major weakness.
Distract + cheap shot is also a terrible idea unless you desperately need it because distract costs energy, and being down 30 energy is crippling for your stunlock/burst combos.
I agree that 10 points is too much, but I suggest dropping camo rather than MoD. Camo feels nice and is very convenient, but there’s nothing you can do with camo that you can’t do without it. The same is not true for MoD.
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Distract is cheap, you time it before an energy tick. You can also just sap. As a Human Rogue I always win the opener thanks to Perception. If I’m jumped then MoD wouldn’t have helped anyway. Camo allows you to restealth as soon as you drop combat, as well as the obvious speed increase. If you are hit by AoE not meant for you in a fight, Camo will get you back into stealth quickly. MoD is only good against two classes, Camo is good against the rest. It’s the obvious pick.
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Thanks for the replies! With all that being said, do any daggers builds use hemo for building points? Or is that really a swords only ability?
If I recall, it was better for slow weapons because it was the Rogue’s cheapest combo point generating ability, and did straight up weapon damage. I used it with Dal’rend’s swords, which was the best set I could get at the time as I didn’t raid much at all. I’d love tp get them again tbh but don’t have the time. I’m planning to do AV for the dagger instead this time around.
You don’t do hemo with dagger builds
Yo guys… so now with the release of dire maul coming pretty soon, are daggers more viable? I’ve been hearing a lot of people say that with the dagger drops that come with this dungeon, they’re now more viable than swords with the current status of the game. Thoughts?
Can you not make hemo work as a cheap SS with a weapon swap macro if you can’t get behind opponents?
I forget. I don’t think you can switch weapons in combat. So you can’t make a backstab macro. If that’s what you mean - not sure?
You can definitely swap weapons in combat, just not actual armor pieces. I think you can also swap trinkets.
Warriors use weapon swaps in combat all the time to switch between 2hander and sword and board.
It does delay your swing timer though.
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Trinkets are counted as armor, need to be out of combat to swap them.
you can switch in combat and macro it. can also switch main hand and off hand with a macro
Yes, you can swap weapons. I used to use a weapon switch macro to ambush with a dagger as a non-dagger build.
The problem with Hemo for daggers is that it does weapon damage only (vs. normalized weapon damage + extra for SS) so it doesn’t hit hard with fast weapons.
You’ll already have imp SS (because of 8 pts in combat) so spending another 4 pts for Hemo that won’t hit as hard doesn’t make sense.