i noticed high rated players don’t seem to really complain about rogue anymore? did they just kinda accept it long ago?
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really is quite insane how long rogue has been an s tier class for every season since s1 of bfa at least
guess that happens when you have every tool in the game and half of those are auto mechanics like autoslow/subterfuge and still do as much dps as everyone else
Anytime they’ve been more overturned than they normally are, usually stuff like echoing reprimand or tier or patches, they NEVER receive any additional nerfs aside from the blatantly broken thing.
Meanwhile other classes will be overturned for a week or 2 and then get slaughtered with nerfs. Never happens to rogue.
Been dodging any real tuning to their kit for multiple expansions, even gaining some additional training wheels along the way. Just a few weeks ago they took feint off the GCD randomly.
Also the CC reductions were for sure a large buff to rogue, only stuns from other rogues and maybe feral main are enough. Everything else is too short.
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Giving this thread a little bump
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Yall are 
Rogue are only good against warriors. Everything else, if they live through both vanishes auto wins
Brought to you by Joesrogue < Ezmode >
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I’d say feral, dh, ret, fury, ww enh are all better than rogue in shuffle in melee lobbies
Yeah they do a lot of damage, but the group up into a ball at mid and smash into each other which every shuffle turns into, they can’t outlast anyone
I think the only rogue spec that would be really susceptible to dying in a melee lobby is Assa but they can also just go the healer if they’re the kill target and force the enemy team to get triple cleaved while their healer freecasts. Sub and Outlaw feel like complete bait to try and kill.
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You’re meant to apply bleeds and shiv then use one of your 512 escapes to get away from the ball
opinion discarded
But there are rogues on this forum saying the same thing about other specs and complaining.
High rated players have enough sense to not trinket the first cheapshot. 
the rogue hate here is so juicy omg i can’t have enough
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But in arenas there is a pocket healer. Rogues aint gonna get changed.
game needs to go back to pre-bfa or w/e whenever they added adaptation & the other trinket. Medallion and nothing. Revert the entire cc kit to back then including spec restrictions. no more db or blast wave from frost mages. no more thunderstorm for non ele. etc.
Rogues should die for playing as they describe in your post. idk if they are or aren’t but either way i’ll advocate for reverting cc changes esp duration nerfs.
cc should max at 8, not 6. blanket statement. 8s blind. 8s poly. 8s trap. 8s warrior fear. idc. everything max.
10 is ok too, but nobody here played wrath so there’s no way i’m convincing anyone of that lol.
Just remove it. God tier ability that only prevents rogue from designed well as it’s so strong that the entire class is crippled by it existing.
This is kinda fried. If you fix the things you’re asking for outside of this, this is overkill. I know you want to gutter rogue, I do too. But don’t attack functions that have existed since the game launched.
as they should. whats your point?
i think what you’re trying to say is remove subterfuge. which 100% prune subterfuge. rogues need to learn to play without safety nets.
I think charges as a feature of any class needs to go. Abilities should be single charge only & CDR should be cooldown based a-la Readiness, Cold Snap, Preparation, that kind of thing. Cooldown awareness is a skill. Getting max value of your Cold Snap etc is a skill. Having the awareness to aggro snap or prep because it’ll win a game is a skill. The game’s better without charges & with CDR cooldowns for the classes that need them.
Don’t think this is a good idea. I think the game needs more stronger slows & less mobility overall. Not less. Play a caster on any version of classic and tell me how much better it feels to actually be able to cast because literally only snares were applied. It’s way better when the entire game is wheelchair status outside of dispels & cds. Slow > Fast and retail has lost it’s mind.
Rogue’s resource is infinite, energy generates over time. Uptime is crucial for rogue to function as a class. I genuinely think a rogue who doesn’t need uptime / slows would be worse for the game in the same way that modern rogue doesn’t need cc. It’s the same issue. It will only result in stronger rogues. It’s actually more detailed than the inconvenience of being slowed implies. They thought about this all in great detail 20 years ago. But now it’s just things people don’t think about or why.
Completely disagree. Game’s better with higher MS. 50% needs to come back and the game completely fell off a cliff with cataclysm lowering MS.
Overall I"m 1000% on board with gutting rogue in particular cooldown charges, subterfuge, and Duel needs to be removed from the game. But as far as control goes rogue shouldn’t change / should get revereted / buffed to past levels along with all other classes.
But yeah. idk. Lots of asterisks and reasons why things need to be the way they are. like MS, like Slow strength. Like the functions of Combat requisite abilities.
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Rogues and other classes have ccs that don’t actively put the target in combat like blind, and using multiple ccs with the one at the that doesn’t place the target in combat is the basic setup for sapping “mid combat” (aka making the healer drop combat after 6 seconds of no actions that place them in combat). All you would be doing with your change is forcing them to vanish to sap instead of use dance like they have been since 2007. The nerf to blind in DF made it so rogues have to pre set up their blinds every single time where as before in Dragonflight it was a gamble to land a sap off it. While rogue kit needs some tooling to be better balanced, the changes you suggested seem more like idk how to beat them rather than this is how to fix them.
And the mobility conversations ends up being a game wide issue where removing 1 requires removing a lot of options. 2 charges+1 leap, 2 blinks+1 alter reset+ displacement, 2 dh dashes+ fel charge +2 vengeful retreats, 2 dk horses+ deaths advance + wraith walk. There’s only a few classes that feel “slow” now compared to a few years ago and rogues+mages are 100% the most mobile. But to say its as easy as just removing 1 step charge is wild when the rest of the game is built around us having both.
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Exalter is already 2100 on assa rogue, I see!
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In no world are mages “slow”
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I worded it poorly, i meant rogues and mages to be the faster ones now, unlike their older designs
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Had me till here, rogue is the softest melee now. Skill issue on your end.