Rogue class talents

Classes Rogue
1

Since the new class talent points are relegated to the first two tiers of the tree, there does need to be a look at the talents.

The options for these new points are relatively lacking. Improved wound poison and superior mixture probably will not be taken in PvE, but I do feel that is fine overall due to PvP concerns.

Unbreakable stride should have a tweak since it is very restrictive. It only works on snares that have no other underlying effects like a dot. Making it weaken snares to some degree would probably be a better alternative. ATM it is almost pointless.

Speaking of pointless, why is shadowheart a thing? It has literally been a meme talent since inception. When the general pass nerfs to self healing were done in early TWW and it was included, the meme idea was reinforced. During TWW, being on a side wing made it a nonissue as a whole I feel. With the introduction of 3 points at this tier or above, along with general reduction in value of, say, subterfuge and shadow dance, this talent is literally nothing now. Rather than somehow buffing it and making it useful for 1/3 specs (I would imagine only sub might want subterfuge now but who knows), replace it with some sort of other utility. Does not have to be uber amazing or anything, just not baseline worthless like shadowheart will be, even compared to live. I would think something more in the PvE realm would be more useful IMO but does not have to focus that.

ATM with the class tree, from a PvE perspective, rogues will be forced into an almost useless talent. Unbreakable stride (only works on pure snares, if a dot is attached to it does not work, improved wound poison (useful in PvP, pointless in PvE), or shadowheart, which is basically useless.

Also, blind and airborne irritant. I have seen that the AoE component is going to blind baseline, and also that it has been removed, granted not from official sources but datamining. Which one is it? I thought airborne irritant aoe vs gouge was a good balance tbh. The change to airborne irritant also conflicts with blinding powder for outlaw, unless the intention is outlaw rogues can spam pocket sand…
Was it a bad thing rogues had some aoe stop somehow?

3 Likes
2

DoT should not have snares attached to them. Especially DoTs that last 30 plus seconds.

A lot of this is going to be pruned away in midnight which will solve a lot of Rogue issues. But talents like shadowheart are just bad.

There is uncertainty with Blind but I think it is being turned into an AoE blind because the duration is already nerfed in PVP and it will probably match it in PVE now if I had to guess. However, having a target blinded for a longer duration in PVE was very useful.

:surfing_woman: :surfing_man:

1 Like
3

think its absurd deadly poison is still the first talent in the spec tree, deadly is not used in PVP, being forced to waste a talent on this is shameful, for the 3rd expac in a row.

also the new avulsion talent being trapped behind amp poison is weird. the side of the tree primarily used for bleed buffs now has a bunch of nature dam modifiers that arent taken in PVP.

solution, make deadly poison baseline, shift up improved poisons in its place, move amp poison to where improved poisons currently is, put poison bomb where amp poison was and delete the talent node not being used.

not a big fan of the restructure of the talent tree, the mix of bleed/nature dam modifiers are all over the place and it just feels odd.

3 Likes
4

Alot of talents need to change drastically or not exist for sure. Take for example the new cold blood talent, if im reading correctly it will only have a 20% to proc every 45 seconds? Why cant it just be like it was before if its the same cd? Stupid

3 Likes
5

I’m pretty sure that’s just there because it’s an error from when it had a cd.

The class talents are still a train wreck, Since they fully redid most of the
specs I hope class tree just hasn’t been gotten to yet but with their history it could easily last until next beta so who knows.

3 Likes
6

The last build I do think had positive changes for the class tree, although I do still have concerns.

The cold blooded killer change is a lot healthier, and a lot less spikey rng.

I know it isn’t a popular opinion, but I do not think auto procing tea is a big deal, especially with the mastery component removed. Changing the talent overall is not something I would be against, but in a design where energy will matter, like in theory assassination, it isn’t a bad talent.

Based on the notes, I would guess rushed setup is being replaced with toxic stiletto and shadowheart is being replaced by danger sense. The former is a meh change, not bad and does help with utility tbh, and the latter is a much better change. They are compelling utility choices for the new points we will be getting I feel.

The two new generic talents that were in the alpha notes, more agi and more finisher damage, will depend on their location. If they are put before the second gate, then I feel it will be bad design, since those two points will be an auto lock basically. Personally I prefer that utility and damage are not made a major choice, and I feel the class tree before midnight did a good job of splitting that with the gate. If those two talents are above the second gate, then 2 of the 3 class tree points will have been all but decided. Compared with the new hero talent points and apex talents that, in theory, should be also chosen almost 100% (per blizz), then there is arguable a reduction in choice overall. Yes, one can choose to avoid apex talents, or in theory these two passive nodes, but there will be pressure to taken them no matter what (unless apex talents are useless, but that would be a major design flaw).

As for talents beyond the second gate, subterfuge and without a trace need a look at. Although nerfed, only sub has a reason to go for those talent (ironic twist from TWW) vs outlaw and assassination. Outlaw has Take em by Surprise and Assassination has Improved Garrote that would be affected by subterfuge, with both effects not being worth the talent point investment into subterfuge/WaT. While I do not think readding stealth interactions to those specs is a good idea, this portion of the tree should have some reason for being used by all 3 specs. One thought was maybe adding the old master assassin effect back, but that would also clash with the idea of limiting the stacking of too many things.

1 Like
7

Subterfuge and Without a Trace are still powerful even from a PVE point of view because being able to perform stealth moves despite being hit and brought out of stealth, and extra vanish are very handy. I would argue that Without a Trace and Thistle Tea are fine as cap stones.

Keep in mind that also that Soothing Darkness is clutch healing too that uses zero energy.

:surfing_woman: :surfing_man: