Rogue 2.0 Class Redesign Proposal

As a result of what has been discussed in this thread, I am continuously updating the post to incorporate feedback.


Intro

Rogues are currently one of the least played classes in World of Warcraft. I believe this is due to a combination of mechanical stagnation, overlap between specs, and limited role flexibility. The intent of these changes is to diversify Rogue gameplay, increase spec differentiation, and provide additional role options—without removing the core stealth fantasy.

Rogues have always struggled with spec identity. In the original talent trees, other classes had clear archetypes (Fire vs. Frost Mage, Arms vs. Fury Warrior), while Rogues mostly had different percentages of the same mechanics — more poison, more energy efficiency, more backstab bonuses. When Cataclysm forced single spec selection, that lack of distinction left Rogues with blurred, overlapping roles instead of unique playstyles.

Now we have Outlaw (formerly Combat) emerging as two distinct specs in one. This needs to be broken up in the same way Feral was broken up into Feral and Guardian.

The following redesign is a hypothesis aimed at increasing spec diversity, role variety, modern naming conventions (abstract nouns), and thematic clarity:


New Class Specializations (4)


Venom (replaces Assassination) – The Poison Master :snake::scorpion:

Reference: This spec change is probably the most challenging. Assassins in D&D 5e use poisons, surprise attacks, and disguise. No mention of bleeds. Distilling this down to “Venom” is a way of narrowing the spec to focus on what’s already available within the Assassin’s toolkit. Venom also steers away from just becoming an alchemist. If this spec were a true assassin based on D&D rules, there would be no bleeds and aspects of the class focused on disguise. So basically - Venom is a subtype of Assassin, which is a subtype of Rogue.

Role: Mobile, Sustained DPS

A dagger-wielding spec where all damage is poison-based. Toxic strikes, venom bombs, and clouds of poison mist define its identity, cementing its role as the master of toxins. Bleeds are shifted to Shadow spec to sharpen its poison fantasy and to eliminate the redundancy of having two similar DoT mechanisms. This spec could feature some of the game’s most striking visuals. Basis of poison damage could be either snakes, spiders, scorpions, bees/wasps, jellyfish, whatever.

  • Premier Ability:

Elixer of Serpents

Instant – 2 min cooldown

You drink a volatile poison, transforming your blood into venom for 15 sec. While empowered, you are immune to roots and snares, movement speed is increased by 30%, and your damaging abilities apply Venomfang. Venomfang stacks up to 10 times, dealing nature damage over 8 sec and increasing poison damage taken by 2% per stack.

This effect can be used alongside Sprint, but movement speed cannot exceed +100% movement speed.

  • Passive: Your damaging abilities have a chance to activate Serpent’s Reflex, making you immune to roots and snares, and increasing movement speed by 30% for 5 seconds.

Shadow (replaces Subtlety) – The Blade of Darkness :ninja: :crossed_swords:

Reference: Shadowdancer D&D 3.5e, or mix of Phantom and Arcane Trickster based on D&D 5e rules. Basically, Phantom Trickster.

Role: Anti-Magic, Burst DPS

A high-impact melee spec that wields sharp two-handed weapons such as 2H axes, 2H swords, or polearms. It blends slower, brutal strikes with stealth and shuriken-style techniques. Bleeds migrate here to complement its burst damage, creating a hybrid between ninja assassin and stealth-oriented arms warrior. Shadow damage could also fill in the need for some sustained DoT damage instead of bleeds.

  • Premier Ability:

Shadow Clone

Instant – 2 min cooldown

Summon a shadowy duplicate of yourself for 15 seconds. The clone mimics your abilities at reduced effectiveness, striking your target from the shadows for 50% of your damage. While active, the clone also applies Cloak of Shadows, granting you immunity to spells.

If the clone is destroyed early, it explodes in a burst of dark energy, dealing Shadow damage and silencing all nearby enemies for 5 sec.

  • Passive: When you take spell damage, you have a chance to trigger Shadow Veil, granting immunity to spells for 5 sec. This effect can only occur once every 45 sec.

Guile (replaces Outlaw) – The Agile Swashbuckler :person_fencing: :dash:

Reference: Artful Dodger from D&D 4e rule set - Nimble, evasive melee

Artful Dodger reference in game https://www.wowhead.com/outfit=65945/artful-dodger

Role: Dodge/Parry, Tank

A sword-focused spec re-imagined as a nimble, evasive tank. This style relies on mobility, parries, and clever counters rather than brute force. It distills down to core combat tricks and resourceful improvisation, creating a unique niche: the rogue who tanks not with armor, but with guile and agility. Gun-play abilities previously associated with Outlaw are moved to their own, ranged focused spec (Precision).

Additional reason for changing Outlaw: The current Outlaw specialization, while not only being the most disjointed relative to the other specializations, overlaps heavily with the fantasy and mechanics of Survival Hunters. Both are mid-range melee/ranged hybrids with a gadget-oriented identity. There is very little space preventing Outlaw from stepping on the thematic space of Survival Hunters.

  • Premier Ability:

Feint

Instant - 20 Energy - 15 sec cooldown

You perform a deceptive maneuver, creating a false opening that draws enemy attention, increasing threat generated against all enemies within 8 yards. For 4 sec, dodge chance increased by 40%. While Feint is active, allies within 15 yards transfer a portion of their threat generated to you.

  • Passive: Your dodge chance now also applies fully to ranged and spell attacks.

Precision (New 4th Spec taken from Outlaw) – The Duelist Marksman :dart: :bow_and_arrow:

Reference: Gunslinger (Duelist & Marksman) from D&D 5e (Matt Mercer) - Trick shots, precise, high risk, high reward, close range.

Role: Fast-Paced, Ranged DPS

A ranged DPS spec that wields guns, crossbows, and bows, embodying the rogue as a daring duelist who wins with reflexes, precision, and dirty tricks. They use rapid bursts of fire, ricochet shots, and gadget-assisted reloads to apply relentless pressure. Outlaw’s ranged abilities would be moved to this spec and expanded upon. Adrenalin Rush would also move here to support a more chaotic aesthetic. Unlike hunters, they do not command beasts or draw on nature—only their speed, cunning, and ruthless accuracy. This spec channels the swashbuckler-with-firearms fantasy while expanding the rogue into a distinct ranged role, supported by snares, disarms, and unpredictable gunplay.

Distinct from Marksmanship Hunter: The Deadeye specializes in improvisational and chaotic tactics such as Killing Spree while Marksmanship Hunters are slower paced and methodical, relying on focused and aimed shots. Instead of carefully lining up the perfect shot, Deadeye Rogues thrive on sudden momentum shifts.

  • Premier Ability:

Killing Spree

Instant - 2 min cooldown

The Deadeye enters a state of relentless assault, rapidly firing a flurry of shots at up to 5 nearby enemies over 3 sec. You are untargetable during this effect. Each shot has a chance to ricochet, hitting an additional nearby enemy.

  • Passive: While on cooldown, critical hits both dealt and received reduce its remaining cooldown.

Vivisection (Potential 5th Spec) – The Sawbone Healer :carpentry_saw::drop_of_blood:

Reference: Does not fall under Rogue class tree in D&D 5e but archetype exists under Pathfinder - Vivisectionist Alchemist. Might be a stretch but sneak is a core feature of this class.

Role: Non-Magic (Physical), Healer

A rogue healer spec inspired by Doctor Theolen Krastinov (The Butcher) of Scholomance. Sawbones rely on crude surgery, bloodletting, and alchemical tonics to keep allies alive. Instead of channeling holy or nature magic, they mend wounds with grit, speed, and ingenuity. Core fantasy is a gruesome combat medic — stitching flesh mid-fight, transfusing toxins into cures, and pushing allies back into the fray with injections and adrenaline bursts. Their toolkit would include direct triage heals, risky self-sacrificing abilities (like bloodletting), and antidote-style AoE cleanses. Primary benefit of this type of physical based healing is a lack of dispel exposure.

Distinct from other healers: Sawbones don’t pray or commune; they cut, stitch, and improvise. Their identity lies in “doing whatever it takes to keep the crew alive,” fitting the rogue archetype while giving the class its first support-healer role.

  • Premier Ability:

Crimson Remedy

Instant - 1.5 min cooldown

You produce a vial of alchemical blood tonic and hurl it to an ally, coating them in crimson medicine that rapidly staunches wounds. Heals the target for a moderate amount instantly, then an additional amount every 2 seconds for 8 seconds. If the target is affected by a poison, bleed, or disease, Crimson Remedy cleanses one such effect and the healing is increased by 25%.

  • Passive: Whenever you use a finishing move, you have a 20% chance to create a Blood Vial, a consumable orb on the ground that allies can pick up to restore health.

Conclusion

The current Rogue specializations feel grammatically and thematically inconsistent:

  • Assassination → a noun describing an act (killing by stealth or poison)
  • Subtlety → an abstract noun (a quality or concept, not an action or role)
  • Outlaw (formerly Combat) → a concrete noun describing a type of person or archetype

Instead of forming a cohesive set of categories, the names each point in different directions: one is an act, one is a trait, and one is an archetype. This lack of alignment makes the Rogue class feel disjointed compared to other classes whose specs share consistent thematic or conceptual grounding. By contrast, a revised abstract naming scheme provides clarity, coherence, and stronger design anchors similar to what we see in more recent class additions (Death Knight, Monk, Demon Hunter, Evoker):

  • Venom → direct, visceral, assassination fantasy
  • Shadow → stealth, burst, darkness fantasy
  • Guile → finesse, trickster melee combatant
  • Precision → unerring accuracy, the deadeye archetype
  • Vivisection → crude, scientific, gruesome medicine

Together, these names form a unified set of abstract thematic identities. They are easier to design around, align grammatically, and support a wider range of play-styles without breaking the core Rogue fantasy.

6 Likes

for the love of all that is holy

play season of discovery if yall want tanking outlaw so badly

9 Likes

buddy, we did play SoD. most people that play wow. play all versions when they are bored of one.

we did play Combat Tank. and it was amazing for those that enjoyed it.
we also read the news like everyone else that development would end there, as they handed out a free boost to everyone to go play MoP classic.

no one wants tanking outlaw. we want outlaw removed. dice gone, gun gone. or turn the spec into its own class so it can stop sticking out like a SORE THUMB on class it does not fit to anymore. whether you wanna except that or not.
we want Combat Rogue Tank. end of story.
retail wows tank line up even after all this time is still small, but we got DPS for years, and you cant exactly go “hmmm healing fantasy rogue”

another dodgy tank. literally just makes sense. and the CONCEPT of buckler rogue tank has been there SINCE like alpha vanilla or something… an idea 20 years old that didnt get put into the game until a silly fun haha server…

and further more, take your pink bar to the paladin forums.

3 Likes

so basically, you want to **** over anyone who likes the spec because YOU dislike it

it was also one if not the least popular tanking spec in SOD only comparable to tanking shaman

yall want tank specs until you realize that most tanking specs require you to press buttons to actually tank. as we already clearly see here, is that non of yall like to actually press buttons.

no ty, ill stay here. if yall allow AI slop to be posted here like ops post, then you can certainly tolerate my presence

2 Likes

:grimacing: Yikes man. bet you are fun at the parties eh? if you wanna argue semantics of why no one plays this least played class sure. end of the day. its cause its garbanzo beans. logs say it all. k bye. :ninja:

2 Likes

talking about logs but the only “loggable content” you did is undermine lfr.

its still crazy how you want to get rid of an entire spec that people enjoy for no reason other than "i dislike it personally and i want everyone to be sad because i cant be bothered to play one of the other 30+ specs

2 Likes

Nothing seems subtle about carrying around massive two handed weapons. Seems more samurai than ninja. As much as I would like a samurai spec, I don’t think deleting the ninja spec for it is good.

7 Likes

How do you miss right out the gate. All youve done is take away half its dot theme.

None of these changes are impactful or meaningful. Youre just changing stuff for the sake of changing stuff and its all nonsensical.

5 Likes

Yes. This is correct. What is assassinations identity currently? Bleeding? Poisons? Mutilation? How is any of this even fitting with Assassination as an aesthetic? There’s breadcrumbs of what rogues were in classic that need to be cleaned up. That’s all.

Clean out the clutter left from 20 years of rogue revisions and give it one distinct identity. Rename is Toxicology, or something along those lines.
:person_shrugging:

1 Like

Controversial - I get that - but I want rogues to have a ranged spec.
As far fetched as that sounds - hunters “went back to their roots” with Survival and got a melee spec…after decades of not having one.

I think it can be done - and if done right, it would be a blast.

7 Likes

Ok. Is the spec currently fitting with the name subtlety? Isn’t that technically every rogue spec? What even is that name? It’s as dumb as combat was. Just change the name of the spec.

I think common opinion is that the Hunter melee spec should have been beastmastery, fitting the Rexxar hero type. Kind of a miss there by blizzard but your point stands.

Rogues could have a fourth spec for this. Why not?

The class is severely neglected. I feel like blizzard just ported over Everquest rogue design to fill out the class roster then moved on.

2 Likes

If they could somehow design it that outlaw maintained being a dps class you could fit into a tank roll with talent options that would be great.

Nuking the spec because they haven’t been bothered to delete vanish being part of our rotation is wild though

4 Likes

Dots
Damage over time
Rotting your opponent.

Do i have to spell it out in more ways?

It uses Shadow magic to amplify its attacks and that comes in the form of echoed damage or straight up shadows helping you out… so yes

No. Your idea is dog. Hollowing out a spec because it doesnt make sense in your pea sized brain is egregious.

3 Likes

Gunslinger baby, make it happen let’s go off the deep end.

But seriously, I really enjoy outlaw as it is. The flavor of it is cool to me, but gameplay wise I really wish they could find a way to just get rid of mechanics that hinge on RNG.

3 Likes

Ooo, gettin personal! Spicy.

Sounds like Subtlety should be renamed Shadow by your description… or maybe Shadowblade even.

But yeah, to my point, every rogue spec could be named subtlety. You could literally switch the names assassination and subtlety and they would both still fit their new spec because of how generic they are.

3 Likes

Not really comparable - Shaman Tank was the most popular Horde tank for almost the entirety of SoD. To compare the numbers fairly, you either need to double Shaman and Paladin numbers (because they’re only usable on 1x faction) or you need to cut the other tank numbers in half (because they’re available on both factions); this puts Paladin as the most popular tank in the game (by far) and Shaman as the #2 spot if you’re looking at all phases/tiers. Rogue was, however, the lowest played tank by a significant margin.

1 Like

You clearly never played Rogues in Everquest. Rogues are way more fleshed out here than they ever were in EQ.

The RNG is holding back the true potential of the spec.

It is not like it is cool RNG like Seal Fate.

The low chance for a second sinister strike wouldn’t matter much if Sinister Strike actually did damage.

RTB has too much variance when you need talents to bring up to the mendoza level.

Crackshot RNG is a factor too but again if Crackshot is converted into a CD you can be able to use it outside of stealth and no RNG too. While preserving Vanish original Rogue class fantasy.

:man_surfing: :surfing_woman:

2 Likes

I farmed guise of the deceiver on my halfling rogue in Lower Guk pre nerf.

1 Like

I keep saying they just need to add another spec to each class. except druid, it literally has every spec in the game at its disposal. it doesnt need anything more than it has.

remove outlaw from rogue and make it a dedicated new class, and give it 2 more specs, one thats full ranged with canon barrage calls and more pirate esthetics, and one thats full sword like a fencer super fast pace with blade rush and grapple hook, current outlaw can remain the plain jane spec of “highway man” doing the surprise gun during sword swings or w/e of both. remove the stealth from the class and let it do what pirates do best. breaking kegs and bum rushing. avast ye swabs! repel the invaders!

bring back combat rogue as a tank to current rogue and boom maybe the rogue dev could actually cook rogue things, cause they did cook with rogue tank on sod even if the numbers dont show on logs, plenty of rogues def enjoyed the solo content chewing the spec could do or just the overall use of having an extra tank at disposal if one tank cant make it.

and imo assa feels pretty good for rogue after all these years, it has its marks but its survived. sub on the other hand, needs a hand. literally. someone help that man.

2 Likes