Yeah Ambush being the trigger for Sin is not fun, and while you can keep it going with DN, DN being 30s and the whole thing having the potential to drop… Deathstalker needs some more help to get past the finish line, lets say
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Envenom, Eviscerate, or Dispatch. Same as now, you just do not need to hardcast slice and dice first anymore.
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This is a cool first draft. Now fix the long-standing rogue bugs, go back to the drawing board in its entirety on Trickster and Fatebound (bonus points if you don’t GCD lock us for a capstone or give a capstone that never naturally occurs), give Outlaw back its birth right acrobatic strikes, make grappling hook work, spend some artistic budget making the hero talents feel heroic for Rogue, add real haste scaling for Outlaw since you’re forcing them into it, and make energy stop feeling like feast or famine.
5 Likes
These changes are spec breaking for sub:
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The removal of CDR without seriously rebalancing:
a) Damage
b) Cooldowns
c) Survivability
d) Mobility- Is the definition of insanity. The entire spec currently revolves around having CDR. Also CDR added a more complex and non-deterministic functionality that I enjoyed.
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Nerfing general self-healing also is questionable. Not to mention the fact that losing CDR already heavily nerfs self-healing cause you can no longer vial > vanish > vial anymore aka just one example of how the entire spec operates with the paradigm of having CDR. So our survivability is already taking a huge hit by removing CDR (less uptime on CC, defensives, healing etc) and you are further nerfing general in combat self-healing.
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The thistle tea change is also horrible since you in large want to line up Tea with your dance windows having to micro manage energy to a <50 granularity check to line up with your dance windows is firstly not feasible and secondly a far worse gameplay experience.
- Either the mastery bonus needs to become a passive increase for taking the talent (final capstone talent btw). Or the mastery needs to be removed all together with the damage redistributed but that makes an already lackluster capstone completely unworthy of being a capstone anymore
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Button bloat: I do overall like that these changes do help with button bloat that the class/spec has been experiencing. These changes (cut to the chase, removal of sepsis, passive thistle) all help with this. But the removal of CDR literally eclipses everything else without sweeping overall changes to rebalance.
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The paradigm of balancing the spec around not having CDR is possible but again requires a serious sweeping overhaul and rebalance of the spec something that ideally should have taken place in the many months of alpha/beta. Presumably there will be a few months before this PTR hits live but even remotely mentioning the removal of CDR without sweeping accompanying balance changes is again insanity.
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The additional charges of symbols isn’t remotely enough to compensate for the loss of CDR.
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CDR impacted literally the ENTIRE kit:
- Core offensive abilities
- Core defensive abilities
- All utility abilities. CC/Kicks/Heals
- Again EVERYTHING no point listing everything out.
- O and also crazy thought but how about mentioning the never ending list of bugs that have been articulated for months during alpha/beta?
- Stealth and Vanish literally break randomly all the time now functionally rendering the defensive aspect near useless
- The removal of CDR makes the offensive aspect of Vanish also neutered
- Premed and Blades arbitrarily give 6 vs 7 CPs with generators. Extremely odd bug to say the least
- Not going to re-iterate but all the hero talent specific bugs that still exist
- Horrible gameplay loops for example trickster having to use Suriken Storm ST just to align Coup which also itself is a jaring GCD lock.
- Suriken storm also pushed into ST for dealthstalker
4 Likes
I would rather have Thistle Tea replaced with something else than for this new change to go live. It seems very clunky.
3 Likes
So far I think the tea feedback is pretty damn 99% unanimous; if the goal is to make energy management easier for more casual rogues thats not the way to do it.
Otherwise I have no clue what that change addresses
About this, I mentioned it before but removing shadowdust will allow the spec to breathe again. To your point yes it will need work, so this initial change definitely needs feedback so keep em coming!
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Why not replace Thistle Tea with Death from Above?
Thistle Tea doesn’t seem thematic at all for any of the rogue fantasies. It seems more like a Monk theme.
Or Cannonfire Barrage if you won’t bring it back on the Fatebound hero tree.
Reminder that ER interaction with Deathstalker is still not working
This should be one of the highest priority fixes
The removal of CDR is just a way to cater to the casual PvE audience when Sub is rarely ever a dominant mythic+ or raid spec to begin with.
It added depth and non deterministic game play which was actually good design.
The issue is that the entire spec revolves around working with CDR and this change functionally deletes the spec from being functional in PvP.
It’s not a matter of just “needs work” it requires a MAJOR OVERHAUL to how the spec functions.
I understand the spec can be designed around not having CDR but that requires:
- Readjusting cooldowns
- Readjusting damage
- Readjusting survivability
- Readjusting utility/CC/interrupts etc
- Readjusting mobility
It’s not just some change that can be done on a whim, the addition of 2 symbol charges is a joke in relation to the sheer net loss of this change.
- No more double interrupts
- No more double vials
- Less uptime on dance which the entire spec is predicated on for doing damage
- Less uptime on all damage CDs for a spec that only does damage in these windows (no sustained and by design should always be a burst spec)
- Less uptime on all defensive CD again for a spec/class which is the most CD reliant can only survive by cycling defensively and CCing targets
- Less uptime on CC no more resets for kidney, gouge etc in combination with the systematic nerfs to duration and cooldowns from DF and TWW.
- Less usage/uptime on Step/Sprint
- To boot dance heal is being removed, kidney already was nerfed to 30 seconds, gouge duration nerfed. All CC nerfed across the board in DF.
Then the icing on the cake are the game breaking bugs that they have yet to acknowledge:
- Stealth and Vanish functionally break all the time nullifying their defensive utility. The offensive functionality of Vanish is further being neutered.
- Why does premed and Shadow blades sometimes only give 6 CP instead of max 7 CPs?
- The various hero talents bugs and weird interactions.
So sure you want to rebalance Sub to be a non CDR spec (when it was perfectly fine with it) go for it but be prepared to put in the time and work to readjust the spec accordingly.
3 Likes
The Thistle Tea change could just be a choice node instead Ç_Ç
Dunno, current Thistle Tea vs Automatic Thistle Tea (40s CD, triggers when lower than 50 energy, 5 charges, something like that? No clue tho)
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I have to agree.
Removing I. Shadow dust without rebalancing Sub makes this change incomplete. Similar to what happened with Outlaw losing Acrobatic Strikes and not enough changes took place to off set such a loss.
For Outlaw and Assassination Thistle Tea is kind of tricky because Assassination wants to time the mastery and Assassination is the most likely to trigger the automatic energy trigger based on my testing.
In comparison with Outlaw, between Pistol Shot procs, Blade Rush, and AR you have to really work hard to go below the threshold to trigger the Thistle Tea automatic charge.
As for the Grapple Hook double charge change it should be a choice node to have Shadow Step/Extra grapple charge.
3 Likes
Not a fan of the Thistle Tea changes. Make it a choice node, or put the Mastery buff directly into Deathmark or something.
The last thing I want is a kick (which–in this economy–shouldn’t cost energy) or something else mechanics based popping me below 50 and burning my tea before I need that mastery buff. With this change I’d have to constantly pool above 100 just to be safe. That’ll be fun, I’m sure.
Aside from that, I’d love to see changes to Deathstalker’s Mark application! If it has to be on Ambush, then maybe let Blindside proc’s trigger it too? Or better still, tie it to garrote or rupture? Something a little more Assassination spec flavoured?
Either way, we need something aside from using our 2 minute Vanish cooldown, which is already DPS tied to Deathmark and Kingsbane to apply Deathstalker’s Mark in the myriad of situations where we either don’t get it because we’re not given the opportunity to stealth, or we lose it because of a complex set of punishing rules between it and Darkest Night.
I mean seriously? If we kill the mob with Deathstalker’s Mark, and get Darkest Night, then kill the the next mob with Envenom while trying to reapply Deathstalker’s Mark, we lose Darkest Night and don’t get the mark. Or how about scenarios where a mob phases or drops threat etc.? I know Ulgrax, the first boss in the raid breaks us when he phases.
Lastly, I’d love for more visual flair. I’m not even sure what there is in the way of visual style for Rogues, aside from a flipping coin and some shadows around our hands from time to time?
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dont waste your breath friends
in last 2 years they are ruined rogue specs with shadow dance. they tied every specs gameplay to it. people said dont do that . but they did. now they removed it but gameplay still needs shadowdance.
before launch people ripped their back for tell their problems to devs. but no one listened them again.
they ruined cc for rogues. they ruined rogues cc abilities. and after removing cdr they ruined sub. okay its good if you balance the spec immediately . but everybody knows they will only do few tuning until next xpac. and it will be turn CCbot again.
just think. main theme of rogue stealth is breaking . and they are not fixing it. i bet they dont know there is a stealth bug.
6 Likes
Without CDR, sub is not playable in competitive pvp. The spec has to be completely overhauled at this point.
3 Likes
if they fixed our damage +our cc ability cd s +our survivability its okey.
but our damage is not enough and need tons of multipliers
our cc s ruined at DF CC NERF FEST and kidney cd recently and our blind cd too long
ruined our defensive kit
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It was not. Sub has an otherwise straightforward rotation. This change just now kills any flexibility in all content. Why? Because you dont want to think about when to press cooldowns? The 11.0 changes had already dumbed it down quite far by halving the CDR. And the tuning point is moot. The ability was so strong, sub could have been undertuned and still manage to perform well because Shadowdust let you bring out that damage at the best times.
If anything it should be made baseline, not removed.
4 Likes
What I meant is that it’s existence meant all tuning had to revolve around it and caused nightmares alternate choices. If it was made as a core component of the spec and not a late talent choice, maybe then we could have an argument about it’s validity, but as a choice node in the talent tree it absolutely took over the spec.
Thing is sub needs some work on their CDs not naturally aligning to begin with, so at least now we should have room for that and hopefully better options in the future.
Btw wether we agree or not I still love you and all rogues, keep the posts coming, let them hear us for a change!
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Copying for cross-visibility:
Quite frankly, I’m gonna say undoing the work of Legion to give Outlaw the corsair/pirate identity and removing Cannonfire Barrage has been a step back, visually and from a design perspective. Making Outlaw some generic thug just visually doesn’t have much space and the hero talents have come out for the worse because of it.
Fatebound is so visually boring, when you could be calling cannonfire, a Ghostly Ship with its crew doing a ghostly barrage as a visual. One of the capstones is virtually called Ghostly Strike, even if it lacks meaningful visuals (like most of the rogue animation roster outside Subtlety skills).
You already have the Dreadwake ship mount as an asset for any ghostly ship effects.
Please give back the Plunderlord and Dreadblades lore and theme to Outlaw.
Bring back Death from Above, give back Parley, Run Through, etc.
For trickster it’s understandable you don’t want a cursed pirate theme, but you could make the shadow strikes much more visually present, calling shades of your character to perform the several strikes, and improving the visuals as well as addressing the GCD issue of Coup de Grace.
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yes you are right.
but why you are thinking they will do real work ? dont wait anything until 11.1
Real talk, i disregard any rogues opinion that calls for this. DfA sucked. Move on.
Yall complaining daily about the trickster capstone extended gcd (you literally did it in the same comment) and Killing Spree movement yet want DfA back? You dont know what you want.
2 Likes