- Rogue
- Subtlety
- Developers’ notes: We’re making a few significant changes to Subtlety’s damage modifiers that when stacked together can cause very high burst damage. Our goal for these changes is to decrease the maximum output, but increase the consistency of Subtlety’s burst windows. We would like to ensure that they are a threat even without all these modifiers present, but have their high-end output capabilities be more in line with damage expectations.
- Finality now increases finisher damage by 8/15% in PvP combat (was 15/30%).
- Shadow Blades now duplicates finishers at 10% effectiveness in PvP combat (was 15%).
- Darkest Night now increases the damage of Eviscerate by 10% in PvP combat (was 19%).
- Symbolic Victory now increases Eviscerate or Black Powder damage by 10% in PvP combat (was 18%).
- Danse Macabre now increases damage by 2% per stack in PvP combat (was 4%).
- Backstab damage increased by 20% in PvP combat.
- Gloomblade damage increased by 20% in PvP combat.
- Shadowstrike damage increased by 20% in PvP combat.
- Rupture damage increased by 25% in PvP combat.
- Eviserate damage increased by 25% in PvP combat.
- Secret Technique damage increased by 10% in PvP combat.
I don’t PvP any more. Maybe it’s justified? But probably not. 
Subtley players have been asking for a long time to have better damage outside of Shadow Dance. I guess the burst damage got to be too much and Blizzard heard cries of other classes. 
3 Likes
That is exactly what these changes do.
4 Likes
Right. I am assuming Blizzard didn’t do this because rogues asked for it. Rather, because other classes were complaining about the burst damage.
I haven’t done PvP in a few years. So, if I’m wrong, that means Blizzard is actually listening. And that’s a good thing.
I wonder if PvE will get the same treatment.
2 Likes
For what its worth, all I see is positive feedback about it on the rogue discord
2 Likes
Looks good on paper for Sub we have to see how it plays out in practice. Honeslty Sub is still going to have burst but having actually damage outside of CDs is a net positive for the spec.
Cata classic did a lot to convince and teach the new devs to return Sub to that design paradigm.
3 Likes
We dont need sustain damage. We need recover Dance faster… If you want sustain damage, play Assa. Instead of make Sub recover Dance faster, Blizzard nerf our burst. Now IF you cant 1 shot anymore as Sub on Tuesday, then why play Sub anymore. Its officially CC bot. No Cdr no duel no burst no kill window. Why play Sub if you can play outlaw and has even more survive ability and more burst window. Blizzard tried to delete rogue this expansion especially Sub. Nothing good come out from each patch. All we see is nerf nerf nerf. I wonder if their Dev team even play Sub. We NEED recover Dance faster, Buff deepening shadow to 1s per combo point and all ability energy cost reduce by half. We dont need buff to backstab, rupture and Evis. We dont want to fight like a Warrior with no Dance.
4 Likes
You dont understand, if you cant 1 shot as Sub mean you cant force trinket then you will lose. I am talking about vs good player not random Bg. Its not easy to set up 1 shot when all class has so many defensive nowaday. You cant stay there to fight like a warrior as a rogue. They hit you 3 global and you lose half hp. Not everything base on 3v3 when you have healer to heal you. Do you guy even play Sub? You dont stay there to backstab and tank damage when your burst on cd. You kite or use defensive til next stun. But now your next stun cant kill because all modifier reduce by 50%.
4 Likes
I think this change was made for arena so I agree. In general Rogue healing is too poor given how the game has evolved.
1 Like
Idk, I don’t see “sustained damage” being better. Just seems like dance windows will be more consistent (or thats what blizz is trying to do) . Without dance we’re a paper class, 20% backstab/rupture/evis damage can’t finish anything off at 20%, you will have to wait for drs/dance to kill.
If we get someone to 10-20% I think the game should be tuned in a way that we can kill without dance. The problem is that you need dance to land a killing blow 100% of the time. This can be fixed by giga buffing backstab by like 300% or another good way to make our sustained better is to just get rid of FW and standardize evis dmg. Evis damage should be scary in and out of dance.
2 Likes
Consistent damage does not kill anything as sub. You need burst. I repeat, a sub cannot kill anything with consistent damage against all these healer comps.
A healer presses one button and all that “Consistent” damage is undone and erased. Until healers do less healing, consistent damage is worthless.
Stop the over tuned one button press healing or buff the burst like you are doing with Ret.
3 Likes
No it does not help land kills, but Sub not being useless outside of CDs is how the spec still shined in Cata.
Like I said before it looks good on paper but we have to see how it performs in practice. They did try this last time with Legion Sub for a bit and the results were mixed. Which is why post Legion Sub returned Sub to its burst model in BFA, Systemlands and DF.
Confirmed. We can still 1 shot after change. Just not as crazy go thru all defensive. Make sure they dont pre wall when you stun. And now, please buff our talent to recover Dance faster. No Dance = no kill.
1 Like
Could always try sin and bleed people
Out! Give it a try.
1 Like
The damage was allocated where dance is impactful and not only during shadowblades. Core abilities are impactful instead of being a gimmick.
It is a step in the right direction. The devs did well and this should have been the motive across the game for us Subtlety rogues.
2 Likes
That’s great but does nothing against a disc priest, pally, druid, evoker. Which is half of every match in 2s.
That is because Sub still has not fully been compensated for the loss of Inv Shadow Dust and the loss of Shadowy Duel.
3 Likes
YUP! As a 2500 exp player in 3’s/blitz sub feels exactly like a furry warrior that can stealth… class is no longer fun and is extremely boring with no reward for skilled plays. Just a spamming stun bot noodle slapper. Game is GG
3 Likes