This was all really neat to hear about and see in action. I think a big part of this being so effective is you really only need 14 points into Prot to be a high TPS tank in a group with one class over represented.
Everything else is just meh in the prot tree, so on fights where this type of range unresistible tanking could benefit a group you can have a Holy paladin throw on their tank set an do it. This is by in large the exact thing people like shift dont get, you could sack 90% of buffs in this game, but are you really going to deny your group 10% more stats, SRS? Your going to have a paladin spec for kings, and another 3 points for Imp RF and he can tank like this if needed.
Shame the constructive discussion is being overwhelmed by 2 very loud stupid voices. Instead of " Hey thats neat, lets think of ways that it could be abused / used" Its turned in " OMG paladin still bad lul prove to me its gud"
Itâs more like OP when there is only one mob in combat and terrible when the threat is split among other mobs including ones you donât want aggro on.
Taking a prot pal means giving up a tank spot. So either a fury warrior or a feral druid. Both of which, unlike a paladin, are capable of OTing all content.
I donât know what the double standard is you are talking about. Between paladins being the worst tank at mitigating damage, and unable to tank all content, it just doesnât make sense to bring one, especially when warriors and druids are so common.
I will say this, that video clip 100% represents prot/ret paladins. They shout their disillusioned beliefs and get themselves all riled up thinking that they can, and then reality hits them like a train. lol
Hahaha, exactly. There was more to it, though, as I explain ahead:
No, the original criticism was not about the cost, but about having to pay money to do what other tanks do for free, while still have a plethora of other issuesâŚ
Youâd know this if you actually read the post instead of getting upset about the fact I misstated the cost at first.
Hereâs the actual original criticism:
Now please stop lying.
âHostile?â No. Derisive, maybe.
It seems illogical because that isnât actually a viewpoint anyone holds. No one is miffed by this.
ââŚyour Holy attacksâ implies abilities you cast, so yes, itâs because itâs an item.
Well, except by throttling your own DPS, of course. Something I brought up in my original criticism, mind you.
Feral Druids and Fury/Prot Warriors are capable of generating just as much threat, if not more (assuming no excessive class stacking) already, and do far more DPS.
That threat only gets better as time goes on, but Prot Paladinâs threat remains constant if they are using this method. Theyâre already the worst, and they donât get much better.
Onyxia is the only raid boss in the game right now that canât be taunted.
Incorrect.
Defense cap is a pretty big assumption, and for a Prot Paladin, comes at the expense of other necessary stats.
I think the more valid response is this:
A group that brings a Prot Paladin is also probably making all sorts of other ill-advised decisions, as well, such as bringing Moonkins, numerous Shadow Priests, allowing Hunters to use Serpent Sting, etc.
It would not surprise me that they are expecting several minute long air phases on Onyxia with multiple breaths.
Well, by bringing a Prot Paladin to tank, youâre not having a Fury/Prot warrior tank instead.
Itâs possible to hold aggro as as a Prot Paladin. Okay, but at what expense (and I donât mean what monetary cost, mind you)? A Shadow Priest can hold aggro, but unless the goal is to challenge yourself by making the content more difficult, I donât really see the point in saying itâs possible.
Anyone worth their salt already knew it was possible, but felt it necessary to point out that it was not good.
I donât think the threat is split, but I agree with the general idea of what youâre saying.
This is obviously only effective if you intend to tank everything in the encounter, because you canât choose which targets to generate threat on.
Warriors can shove Crushing Blows off the table right now, and can do so more consistently before BWL even finishes out. A Paladin in the absolute best they can get defensive gear at the end of AQ40 with zero options for upgrades defensively moving into Naxxramas still canât do it. And that is all while having less Armor than a Warrior and no Defensive Stance, which means youâre miles behind the Druid who decided Hit cap was more important than Armor/Health, let alone the Druid that wanted to maximize EH.
And none of this gear allows for you to itemize for a shred of Mp5 or Intellect
Not even a fast one-hander because you have barely enough Defense to go around without still using Deathbone in a T2.5+ level raid
Why on Earth would I put a Paladin in front of Broodlord to get Crit and Crushed? Why would I ever utilize a Paladin for anything that requires resistances when you have precious little gear choice as is?
FFS
This is just absurd. Why would anyone bring a Paladin to tank in AQ40 or Naxx when the Warrior and Druid take less damage while dealing far more? And youâre capped at a static per-person TPS level that Druids can achieve RIGHT NOW while dealing damage with the only hope of scaling being warm-body stacking to continue dealing no damage. Whee.
You continually glide over this fact that if youâre holding threat you need to be able to take the hits. Paladins canât take the hits as well as a Warrior. The end. A Warlock spamming Searing Pain with Soul Link is more capable a ranged-tank than a Paladin, while also dealing damage.
we actually used this in BWL on Nef fight.
the palis mob tanks would start blessing people to pull innitial aggro from the packs mobs that would comeâŚ
well I mean it states âyour holy attacksâ implying only stuff that deals damage but still amplifies threat of heals and even buffs, but I will buy âbecause its an itemâ either way.
Yeah, thatâs a bug, â the bug this thread is all about â but itâs a bug that existed in vanilla, so it was deliberately recreated in Classic.
In any case, âyour Holy attacksâ basically means âyour abilities.â Effects from items are not included. Similarly, you do not generate bonus threat with bombs, Oil of Immolation, etc.
why would we need to when weâre already putting out ludicrous amounts of AoE threat as it is?
similarly, who cares? Onyxia and Molten Core are lulz fests
the only place where it really matters is Naxx where we can use Stratholme Holy Water, which not only scales at 100% of spell damage, but wait for itâŚ
I didnât say you needed to. Someone was asking about it, and I answered. Thatâs all.
How many clears of each raid have you had on your Prot Paladin so far?
Iâve been hoping some Prot Paladins would upload logs, but the only âProtâ Paladins so far are just Ret Paladins that manged to aggro some whelps in Phase 2 or 3 and somehow got flagged as tanks because of it.
Does it work that way in Classic or is that just something you learned from private servers?
I donât play Prot - never was my bag - plus Iâm only level 42 as I dual box level warrior + paladin. Yes, Iâm slow levelling up but Iâve gone on vacation three times since classic launched so it is what it is.
regarding Holy Water - yep itâs legit - I wrote the bug report on Lightshope and it was confirmed by the wow tools site that we datamined when the beta was up:
Stratholme Holy Water should scale at 100% of spell damage
Itâs like everyone forgets that your OTs donât actually OT every fight. I remember when druid tanks were ridiculed as much as or if not more than paladin tanks. /sigh
Lol, your quote comes at the end of the post and after a couple line breaks. Bending the truth to make yourself sound better doesnât show you in a good light.
How much dps is your 850 tps feral druid doing atm? 400? How much are you doing when not using MCP? 225? Itâs MC, so you are probably not using more than one charge per target because you do so much more threat than the dps even without the MCP at the moment. If the fight averages 1 min long then you do 313 dps (non reflection). A paladin tank would be doing just over 230. A prot warrior with infinite rage is looking at 260 dps. Itâs like people think these are huge differences.
Bear druids are amazing, but warrior threat doesnât scale all that well with a shield in the off hand. I mean, the warrior neuters their ability to soak damage to pull ridiculous amounts of threat still short of what druids do without breaking a sweat, reducing survivability, and still has higher max health.
I think we are in agreement here, at least until BWL when defense cap is a much easier target. Besides, a 1-2% rate to get crit means on average 1 crit every 4-2 minutes of constantly being hit with crit/CB immunity for 5 blocks after that. Not something thatâs all that scary atm with MC.
Exactly. That warrior is dpsing instead, being worth about 200 more dps minimum in just MC. When the paladin canât tank effectively enough, they heal. Incidentally these fights tend to want more healers anyway.
Ya, the threat doesnât split.
It is a negative, but luckily that just makes them very effective OT material on those fights. Razorgore might be a really good fight to have that ability on which would leave warriors free to dps and piercing howl
Why on earth are you arguing like you are forced to have a pally tank. Itâs quite obvious that paladins arenât the best tanks for raids. Doesnât mean that people canât play the way they want to.
Druids donât take less damage than paladins once BWL is opened up and the paladin is geared and capable of hitting the armor soft cap. Mathing it out has paladins and druids being roughly similar in damage intake through Naxx. The difference comes in total health. And warriors have to take a hit to their massive mitigation lead to deal more threat. In Naxx full mitigation gear a warrior sims at about 50% damage taken compared to a druid or paladin. Once you take the shield away to generate more threat that mitigation lead falls behind druid and even paladin (not to mention they are going to pop DW for more threats)
Of course a paladin canât take hits as well as a warrior. That doesnât mean they are incapable of taking the hits themselves.
For one fight, in AQ. OK, so? I mean warriors and druids are even worse for that fight. For physical damage, any of the 3 main tanking classes will outperform any other class in TPS, mitigation, and health pool.
Battle Shout used to not split between targets, but it was quickly done once it was abused on Nefarian to easily tank the adds. It would only be fair if they did the same to Paladin blessings if it isnât the case already. Even if itâs not the case, it would still pull threat off of other tanks because tanks that arenât on the first kill target use mitigation gear.
Even more reason not to take a prot pal. A fury OT provides great dps when not needed to tank. A feral druid can do ok dps, even great dps if they are min/maxing. If a prot paladin isnât tanking, they are just a waste of a raid spot.
I donât think you know what a double standard is. The standard is to be good, or at the very least not terrible.
A prot pal has terrible mitigation that will bleed healers mana. Is worthless on encounters that donât require an OT, and is unable to even OT every encounter that requires an OT. That last one is the big one. Even if we ignore the fact that a prot pal is worthless when not tanking, they canât even do the job they are trying to get a spot for on every fight that requires an OT due to lacking a taunt and having a mana bar.
When you only argue in bad faith, you come up with inane motivations like this. I never argued or implied âforcedâ at any point.
There is no âsoft-capâ for Armor. Also in what world is a Paladin still rocking Deathbone to keep up with Defense requirements and less Armor than a Warrior mindlessly throwing on T2 going to take less damage than a Druid somewhere between 10-13k Armor?
Seriously, I want to see this proven because you canât keep up with passive mitigation without dropping Defense/Avoidance, and even with a capped out Avoidance setup, you canât get Holy Shield to force everything off the table. And if youâre attempting to conflate Avoidance with Survivability⌠/facepalm
The only fight where ranged threat actually mattersâŚ
At this point until you show your work, nonsense statements like âPaladins take less damage than Druids in BWL!â are just flagrantly, hilariously, wrong.
The only one bending the truth is yourself. Youâre trying to pretend that the original criticism was the cost of holding aggro, when in fact, the reality was the absurdity of having to pay money to do what the other tanks do for free while still suffering other issues.
You cut out the rest of the post and only quoted the part about the cost, ignoring the rest of the criticisms I made, trying to portray my issue as one of cost.
I donât just use MCP out of necessity. I use as many MCPs as are necessary to have it up the entire fight, just to kill the boss faster and be the most useful I can be.
Iâm not sure what the point of bringing this up is, though.
Iâm not sure where youâre getting your numbers for this, and itâs why I wish more prot paladins would actually log their fights.
WarcraftLogs is currently not really accurately flagging people as their roles, and just assigning tanks based on who has aggro, but just to give you can idea: https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/1001#class=Warrior&spec=Protection https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/1001#class=Druid&spec=Guardian https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/1001#class=Paladin&spec=Protection https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/1001#class=Tanks&aggregate=amount
The average tanks arenât doing anywhere close to 200 DPS.
The highest parsing tanks are doing much more than your describing, and the discrepancy is much bigger than youâre suggesting.
Why would they have a shield in the off-hand? The best tanking spec for Warriors is Fury/Prot, dual wielding for increased DPS and threat.
Exactly why it was argued earlier in this thread that Feral Druids are better tanks than Warriors, at least currently, because their TPS is much better and allows the DPS to go all out.
However, if the Warrior is capable of generating enough threat to maintain aggro, theyâre going to be better than Druids because their DPS is much higher. The mitigation they lose isnât really a concern because the bosses are not particularly dangerous.
You asked who said anything about giving up a Fury Warrior. Fury/Prot is a tank build. If youâre bringing a Prot Paladin to tank, youâre choosing not to bring that Fury/Prot Warrior instead.
Really? Aside from dispels and decurses, these fights Iâve noticed favor DPS far more.
No one has said that people canât play the way they want to. Or, just to be totally accurate, I have not said that.
However, when we bring up criticisms of Prot Paladin, the Prot Paladins rush to the defense and argue their superiority (yes, they have done that in this thread) instead of acknowledging their shortcomings and just saying they enjoy the challenge of playing something worse or they just find it more fun, or whatever.
Except no one is making a thread suggesting that Druids or Warriors are the best tanks for that, or that theyâre capable of doing it, like Prot Paladins insist on doing.
It doesnât matter if itâd be fair or not; it only matters how it was in vanilla.
From my understanding, the threat from Battle Shout is not split, anyway. Blizzard specifically removed a bug fixing that.
No, Iâd like to step in and say that, if we arenât tanking, our DPS is terrible. Our build does not include the cat talents, and even if we make minor sacrifices in our ability to mitigate damage for cat talents, catâs DPS is atrocious even when min/maxing.
I do agree that weâre more useful in terms of what we can do than a Prot Paladin would be, though.
There is.
Inspiration gives 25% armor, and armorâs damage reduction is capped at 75% with 17,265 armor, which means the âsoft capâ on armor is 13,812.
Beyond that point, if Inspiration is applied to you, you do not gain any damage reduction from extra armor. Thatâs why itâs called the âsoft capâ because you can actually still gain mitigation when Inspiration isnât up.