Reverence for old lore makes modern Warcraft's story worse

This post is just a way for me to lay out my thoughts on what people seem to think is a dichotomy between old and new lore, and how I think the way people think about these two things is actively harmful to the story of the game. Obviously this is just an opinion and disagreement is expected, but I’ll provide sources where I can so we can at least agree on the basic facts of things.

This will be broken down into a series of categories I’ll go into one at a time.

Links used to all work but trust level is dumb. Links in citations will still work if you remove the ’ symbol though.

The Tone of New vs. Old

One common thing I see discussed by fans of the Warcraft franchise is how the tone of new lore is far too distant and removed from the ‘darker’ tone of old Warcraft. This does make some sense, after all [Warcraft 1 was originally intended to be created as a Warhammer game [1]. This gave the early Warcraft story (Pre-WoW) a good bit of dark fantasy edge to it owed to it’s original inspiration. However, this overall “dark” tone did not survive well into the World of Warcraft stories as many think.

Even in it’s early years World of Warcraft presented massive amounts of tonal whiplash both in the world it created to explore and in it’s text. In this world you can travel quickly from the bright and whimsical fantasy forests of Elwynn into the dark and foreboding thickets of Duskwood. You can help a familiar green-clad Gnomish adventurer in a blatant reference to The Legend of Zelda [2] or face off against the fearsome El Pollo Grande [3]. Alternatively, you could take the time to find a heartfelt letter on a dead Dwarf. [4] Which is actually taken from the real life letter written by a dead Union soldier during the American Civil War [5].

This tonal whiplash is not a flaw of Warcraft, old or new, it is a feature and one of the most defining parts of the universe. Every expansion, every zone even, has a unique tone and story line it’s trying to tell. The writers should not feel it necessary to have to adhere to a tone that encompasses an entire zone or expansion story line because simply put that is not Warcraft. The Warcraft universe is many genres, themes and tones sloppily mixed into this melting pot which unashamedly wears its inspirations on its sleeve. After all this is the game where a widely considered ‘darker’ expansion has a raid boss created by a Gnome accidentally summoning an Eredar Lord [6] and a ‘light-hearted’ expansion begins with unarmed Orcs being mercilessly gunned down after being defeated [7].

Constantly expecting that Warcraft lore ought to adhere to one end of this tonal range or the other is only setting yourself up for disappointment. Every expansion will have it’s serious moments and it’s goofy moments and that’s perfectly okay. That is not to say that every serious moment hits home and that every joke is funny, in fact I’d say most of the time the serious moments fall completely flat, but that is about execution and not concept. Many people will see something executed or built up poorly and blame it on the very idea being unworkable rather than not enough time or care being put into that execution.

I strongly believe that Shadowlands and it’s story are a result of a (poor) attempt to appease long-time Warcraft fans with constant callbacks and references to old lore. The return of many old characters such as Bolvar, Uther, Kael’thas and Kel’thuzad combined with constant callbacks to Wrath-era bits of lore such as the destruction of the Helm of Domination being the inciting incident to the entire expansion. Even the Jailer being a stoic and enigmatic figure with a cloudy motivation outside the domination of the Shadowlands is a look at the sort of villain that was represented by The Lich King himself during Wrath. In many ways I see Shadowlands as a shallow attempt to cater to those who believe Wrath was a peak of Warcraft, and as a result any interesting story that could of existed was muddied by nostalgia and poor writing choices.

Classes, Races, and How They Relate

When you boot up World of Warcraft for the first time the character creation screen is the first thing you’re greeted to, so it makes sense that many people care greatly about the selection of classes and races in the game. To this point many seem to believe that from a lore standpoint having strict class/race combination restrictions was a good thing. There are a myriad of reasons why from a gameplay perspective people may prefer the game with or without these restrictions, but this is not about those and focused solely on from a lore perspective.

With the move towards giving every race every class there are some things which people have gotten up in arms about, warlocks in particular being a contentious one. Some have even claimed that Blizzard has given many races the warlock class without any explanation whatsoever, though this is not entirely true. In a rare show of some amount of care Blizzard did include new warlock class quests [8] where you can see members of these races on their journey through learning the dark arts and they give you some personal insight on why they wish to do so.

What I find interesting about the dialogue found in these quests is that the implication is more focused on the individuals choices rather than entire races being represented by a few individuals (a trend in Warcraft I personally despise). These warlock aspirants delve into the occult for their own reasons, independent of what their peoples may think of it, which is a good way to handle giving stereotypically ‘good’ races stereotypically ‘evil’ classes and vice versa. This is a roleplaying game, after all. You made the Draenei or Kaldorei warlock, why did your character decide that dark magic was the route for them? It doesn’t need to be some big, institutional thing and it doesn’t seem to be. There’s no implication that substantial gangs of warlocks roam the halls of the Exodar or that the majority of Kaldorei now accept Fel magic.

Being so attached to the ‘old way of doing things’ is actively detrimental to player choice and freedom in this case. Many people view class restrictions as a thing that make the races more interesting, but why is that? Is the only way to make races feel like they have unique cultures and lifestyles to restrict others from the playable classes? Having to build up your world via rules of hard restriction like this is completely unnecessary. You can integrate these classes in unique ways that express a different culture, and in some ways Blizzard has managed to do this fairly well.

The Worgen druids being portrayed as having their origins as the harvest witches were a surprising example of this being done well. An out group following the Old Ways and once nearly hunted to extinction [9] gives them a unique identity and history with a tie to Gilnean society. Tauren Sunwalkers, Orcish Blademasters, Elven Spellbreakers, Kaldorei Warden, Forsaken Dark Rangers and Kul Tiran Tidesages are all good ways to create unique class fantasies that fit within the given playable classes while still playing into the races cultural flavor. THIS DOES NOT MEAN ALL X MUST BE Y, NOT ALL FORSAKEN HUNTERS MUST BE LIKE DARK RANGERS FOR EXAMPLE.

I feel that when a lot of people who believe that class restrictions are good talk about this, they are tapping into a real problem with Warcraft writing. The races do not do a lot to feel unique from each other, and Blizzard tends to be very bad at portraying culture. However, this is not a new problem. Races have always had extremely limited flavor with only a few exceptions, and even those exceptions tend to only last for a single expansion before they fade into the background. Going back to how things used to be done (restrictive class/race combinations) will do nothing to solve this problem, and people need to start looking forward on how to address this issue rather than backwards.

The Faction Conflict

The two faction system was a mistake
Horde vs. Alliance is fundamentally the most classic and well known conflict that ever appears in the Warcraft universe. Orcs vs. Humans is iconic, it’s memorable, it’s got a lot of great box art associated with it. But therein lies the problem, it’s marketing, it’s absolute style over substance in a fictional conflict that has gone on for 30 years of writing yet not produced anything meaningful. It was clearly seen as old by some of the writers as early as 2002, when Warcraft 3 was released, the game which ends with three of the playable factions banding together to defeat The Burning Legion [10]. Despite this the factions will always wind up back in an endless and unmoving war that has no established battle lines, will never result in real gains or losses, and is waged by leaders who seem to have no care for how many of their own they lose. Then a larger threat like the Lich King or Burning Legion may appear, cause the two sides to toss aside their differences, and work together… only for this same story to repeat for decades.

It’s dull, an absurd eternal war waged because it’s marketable in real life. Even worse when something threatens to change such as a sub-faction in the conflict debating to switch sides something must immediately make that impossible. This is because the game mechanics serve to halt the Alliance-Horde war from even having the chance to weave a compelling narrative. Sides cannot change, cities cannot be taken without another take from the other side to even the score, one side cannot win because both are playable factions with player characters in them.

One of the few exceptions to this formula is Mists of Pandaria, an expansion that surprisingly ended with the Horde and Alliance banding together to fight a different breakaway faction from the Horde. The Siege of Orgrimmar resulting with the two factions officially deciding to end the bloodshed between the two sides. [12] This truce was further cemented during the trial of Garrosh Hellscream where all sides consented to the trial and all faction leaders were present. [13]

One would naturally expect that this ending to a major expansion and the truce that followed in the next two would cement a peace for the Horde and Alliance. However, this is another instance where I feel the desire for nostalgic story lines served to disallow Warcraft from moving forwards. Battle for Azeroth was billed as a return to form, with the Alliance and Horde war reigniting and being showcased as the [centerpiece of this expansion by it’s trailer [14]. Despite that though after the War of Thorns and Battle for Lordaeron this faction conflict proceeds to take a backseat for the majority of the expansion.

The Questlines of Kul Tiras and Zandalar often appear to be disconnected from the larger conflict. Of course, the Fourth War is the inciting incident for the player characters to even go to these places, yet the questlines themselves are entirely focused around these new regions you’re exploring. You’ll be lured into a shipwreck by sirens with Flynn Fairwind [15], recreate a Monty Python skit in Drustvar [16] and watch as Rastakhan signs away his bloodline to a death god [17]. None of these introductions to these zones have much to do at all with the Fourth War, nor do most of the dungeons and raids in the entire expansion. Yet these parts of Battle for Azeroth are the most rich and character driven parts of it, when the faction war decides to intrude such as during the incredibly dull War Campaign, the Warfronts, or anything involving Sylvanas the entire atmosphere of the expansion comes crashing down.

I strongly believe that Battle for Azeroth was never originally meant to be an expansion about faction conflict. Fans wanted more faction conflict, and Blizzard gave them what they wanted knowing the advertising would cause a big upsurge in interest for the expansion. This shows as the writers likely hamfisted everything to do with the Horde vs. Alliance parts of the expansion, even going so far as to reusing entire character arcs from expansions ago. Within Nazjatar during the Eternal Palace raid tier there were many interactions had between Lor’themar and Jaina, most of them hostile yet as you progress through and eventually beat the raid you’ll see dialogue indicating reconciliation [18]. At a glance this dialogue seems nice, character driven, and helps drive forward peace once again between the two factions. There is, however, only one issue. This exact character arc already happened during Mists of Pandaria [19]. The repititions of the faction war looping over and over again mean you’re doing the same quests in different coats of paint, characters have the same arcs over and over, and you keep a status quo that can never change like a sitcom that’s run 30 years too long.

Characterization and Why the Cast Needs to Die

Jumping off the point of character driven narratives, World of Warcraft doesn’t do a very good job of creating those. This isn’t because the writers are incapable of making characters with distinct personalities and motivations or write dialogue, it’s because the cast of characters that has been built up over decades is stale and disappointing. This isn’t to say that every new character written by Blizzard is a home run, they definitely aren’t, but setting aside more and more of the old cast and bringing in fresh characters can only lead to an improvement to the story.

Characters that make an appearance, leave an impact, and leave when they’ve run their coarse is something that Blizzard rarely does well. A character like Varian Wrynn dying when he did was ultimately good for his character, they had nothing more to do with him and no more ideas, so they gave him a hero’s death and left it at that. Illidan Stormrage appeared for his single recent expansion he was relevant, served his role in the story, and then at the end left. When characters linger for over a decade longer than they’ve done anything in a story they become either bloated or set dressing, and either way as soon as that character is given the spotlight it goes awry.

In Legion the prohpet of the Draenei people, Velen, was truly given the spotlight for the first time since the Draenei were introduced in The Burning Crusade. This immediately becomes messy when the player character is called to the Exodar and it comes under Legion assault. At the end of the quest an Eredar is slain, who is then revealed to be Velen’s son Rakeesh [20]. This obviously becomes what is meant to be an emotional moment but… how can anyone who’s been playing for a long time take this seriously? Velen never brings up having a son, or really even having a family at all. Velen rarely speaks to anyone in a personal manner, we get very little insight into his thoughts or emotional state ever. A character so stoic needs a fair bit of exploration to make him have the emotional depth needed to make a scene like this work. This problem becomes even more apparent in the cutscene after Kil’jaedens defeat, where Velen shares his last moments in a former friend turned enemy [21], and any emotion that should be there falls completely flat.

Of course Velen is only one example of many for these kinds of characters. Thrall famously was taken out of the spotlight after Cataclysm, as the writers likely felt they had little more to do with him after the ending of that expansion. Yet because he is a fan (and Metzen) favorite, he will often appear in newer expansions. Despite this, he rarely actually does much of anything. The same could be said for a character like Malfurion, a legacy character from Warcraft 3 that they clearly have never had a direction for in World of Warcraft. To the point that as of the most recent expansion, he was unceremoniously trapped within the Ardenweald [22].

This problem expands beyond individual characters too, it reaches out to entire races at times. Some races are simply linked eternally to the past and will never be allowed to move forward with new developments in lore. The Blood Elves are my personal favorite example of this. When The Burning Crusade launched the Blood Elves were depicted as outright wicked and nefarious. Kael’thas and Lor’themar lorded over a totalitarian state where dissidents were brainwashed [23] and happiness was mandatory [24]. The Blood Elves on Bloodmyst who arrived from Outland were not only okay with slaughtering the Draenei, they reveled in it [25]. This is all to say that the writers of zones such as Eversong did an excellent job of taking the foundations set by Warcraft 3 and extrapolating them to create an interesting, dystopian setting that gave the Blood Elves of TBC something truly unique to them.

Now after the death of Kael’thas Sunstrider and the restoration of the Sunwell, how has Sin’dorei society changed over the years? We… don’t really know. They don’t tell us very much about this playable race because it isn’t relevant to current content. This wouldn’t so much be a problem if the occassional bits of lore we did get about them gave some indication of how things are currently. Unfortunately, though, anytime there’s something about the Blood Elves it’s always about either Warcraft 3 or things that happened in The Burning Crusade. Even for something as relevant as the heritage armor quest the only thing we do is kill more Scourge in the Ghostlands [26]. Aside from details about Lor’themar’s love life, there really is not much more information to gleam about the Sin’dorei as a race since 2007.

The end point of all this is that feeling the need to stick so closely to nostalgic and familiar concepts ultimately creates a stale and boring experience. Old characters can only go so far, old lore details can only be brought up so many times, references to old expansions get boring eventually. If we want good, fresh storytelling from warcraft they will inevitably have to move forward. Make new characters with fresh perspectives, put new spins on old details and locations, let some more of the old cast die off or retire already. 2002 was a long time ago we can stop pretending like a story that’s King Arthur but with an evil twist is the best they can ever accomplish for character driven storytelling. Sure, new characters and new locations will not always be good… in fact they’ll probably often be bad. But that’s okay, because at least making an attempt at doing something new is better than never even trying at all.

Citations

[1] h’ttps://kotaku.com/how-warcraft-was-almost-a-warhammer-game-and-how-that-5929161
[2] h’ttps://www.wowhead.com/classic/quest=3961/linkens-adventure
[3] h’ttps://www.wowhead.com/classic/npc=659/el-pollo-grande#comments
[4] h’ttps://www.wowhead.com/classic/item=4432/sully-balloos-letter#provided-for
[5] h’ttps://www.stratford.org/uploaded/faculty/jjordan/US_History_Lecture_Notes/Microsoft_Word_-American_Civil_War_Letter.pdf
[6] h’ttps://www.wowhead.com/wotlk/npc=34780/lord-jaraxxus
[7] h’ttps://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/The_Right_Tool_For_The_Job
[8] h’ttps://www.wowhead.com/guide/lore/dragonflight-warlock-pet-customization
[9] h’ttps://www.wowhead.com/quest=14283/moonfire
[10] h’ttps://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Eternity%27s_End
(WC3_campaign)
[11] h’ttps://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/What%27s_in_the_Box%3F
[12] h’ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXKMHMQNo8I&ab_channel=8-BitTavern
[13] h’ttp://wow.joystiq.com/2013/11/18/exclusive-first-look-at-christie-goldens-new-novel-war-crimes/#continued
[14] h’ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSJr3dXZfcg&ab_channel=WorldofWarcraft
[15] h’ttps://www.wowhead.com/quest=48419/lured-and-allured
[16] h’ttps://www.wowhead.com/quest=48111/trial-by-superstition
[17] h’ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnNNCXndjCM&ab_channel=WorldofWarcraft
[18] h’ttps://www.wowhead.com/news/lorthemar-and-jaina-dialogue-on-factions-following-the-eternal-palace-finale-293698
[19] h’ttps://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/The_Fall_of_Shan_Bu
[20] h’ttps://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/High_General_Rakeesh
[21] h’ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Omg8_DNQ5oE&ab_channel=MMO-Champion
[22] h’ttps://www.wowhead.com/quest=66188/storms-rest
[23] h’ttps://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Lyria_Skystrider
[24] h’ttps://wowwiki-archive.fandom.com/wiki/Arcane_Guardian
[25] h’ttps://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Matis_the_Cruel_(quest)
[26] h’ttps://www.wowhead.com/guide/blood-elf-heritage-questline-rewards-mount-paladin-transmog-polearm

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That was great, while I don’t agree with everything that you’ve said here, more than not, you made some really good points.

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I’ve tried and likely failed numerous times to get many of the same points across in this section specifically. Loath as I am to admit, I couldn’t have written it better.

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Dragonflight 100% does not revere Warcraft lore, and you can tell when you -really- try to read into it’s worldbuilding as a part of the greater Warcraft universe and realize how much it’s actually contradicting.

Old lore being constantly overhauled and rewritten cause they think they can do it better or milk it without actual respecting what that lore said is NOT the cause of the setting not progressing, because that lore is what was providing the basis for a logical evolution of things in the setting. Nothing in the older lore tries to stymie any developments in the old world continents, in fact, that era of lore had way more side media to explore what was happening beyond our in-game perspective in those places. Nothing in the old lore is forcing blizzard to instead pivot away from Azeroth, and into ‘cosmology war’ because Chronicles didn’t really set up anything else like the Pantheon besides the Void Lords, for there to be a cosmological free for all.

Warcraft lore, even in Pandaria, had more consistency with prior tones. It was full of cringe jokes dated upon-arrival sure, but it also had a way more mature approach to some of it’s story beats and still mixed in dark elements. Older lore has it’s problems they should avoid emulating, but it also showed much better and vastly more interesting experiences.

Blaming the lows of Shadowlands on fan service neglects that the problem wasn’t the characters showing up, IT WAS THE ENTIRE SYSTEM they were being put into making 0 sense within established Warcraft lore, and often treating those characters terribly. That’s not reverence.

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I’m not reading all of that. Include a thesis next time summarizing your position if you’re going to write a post that long. I’ll respond to what I think your overall point is, though. Nostalgic feelings is what keeps this game afloat.
While I do think the story should go in new directions and explore new themes, if they decided to simply kill off the old cast and begin doing things divorced entirely from what came before, a large portion of the fanbase will simply leave. Likely a large enough portion to kill the game. If you want something entirely different than what Warcraft has been since Warcraft 2 and Vanilla, I recommend looking into other fantasy video games. Baldur’s Gate 3 is pretty fun.

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I always felt that people tend to overvalue how much people care about the main characters. Most people don’t play WoW for the lore or the main cast. Those people aren’t going to leave if the main cast gets replaced

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Truthfully I don’t even want the entire main cast replaced. TL;DR of my point on characters in the post is that you should have a reason for bringing a character into a storyline.

I gave examples like Illidan being brought in for Legion due to it being something that naturally gives his character a lot to do in that story. For that same reason I actually feel like Khadgar is also used fairly well typically. What I don’t like is constantly bringing the old reliables out because they’re expected, and then watching as they proceed to do absolutely nothing for 90% of a storyline.

If the writers don’t see much use for a character, don’t artificially expand their usefulness because they’re old. Let Thrall retire and let Varian rest after his hero’s death.

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Believing that Shadow Lands of all expansions is a product of excessive respect for existing lore is a scorching hot take.

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I get that and I know what you meant. I was just pointing that in the vast majority of MMOs, people don’t play for the story or the characters. They play because the actual content is cool and they get loot out of it.

Your average gamer leaves an MMO because of content draught and rarely for story driven reasons is all I’m saying :smiley_cat:

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SL isn’t made out of excessive respect, but rather it was a (misguided) attempt to harken back to the parts of Warcraft that people consider great. If you’d say to me that SL tells a poor story full of messy retcons, horrible character writing, and a cardboard cutout of a main antagonist I’d be with you 100%.

However beyond those missteps what you see is an expansion which is mired in the past and unable to move on from it. It so badly wanted to create an atmosphere of death and dread like Wrath did, it so desperately wanted people to see the Jailer as a stoic and enigmatic figure like The Lich King. This is what happens when people try to take something that worked once and try to do it but with no soul. Even if you took Shadowlands and fixed a good chunk of the clunky characterization and made it more consistent all you’d wind up with is an expansion eerily similar to things you’ve already seen. The writers of SL didn’t have any disdain for old lore at all, on the contrary they failed because they wanted to reuse it without being able to coherently put their own twist on it.

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Yeah, and that’s a key component in why the story sucks.
And one of 300 reasons why this game has a terrible time attracting new players.
It’s not as if it’s impossible for them to completely change this.

OP isn’t asking for something ‘completely different’, or a complete departure from WoW’s established universe, I don’t think. They’re asking for an actual story with characters that have things to do. Atm a lot of the WC3 characters just wander around doing nothing, because everything Blizz could’ve done with them has already been done.

It’s not as if it’s completely impossible to tell new stories within the Warcraft universe with new characters, they did it for the Kultiras leveling experience in BfA and it was great.

Lol

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While I agree with this (and most of what you’ve posted here), I feel with Lightforged in particular this was a rare moment where we actually did need that character to be somewhat representative of his race. To be honest, any race that was theoretically capable of becoming a warlock would likely have individuals who do so for a wide variety of reasons, just as the precedent for draenei rogues was established long before we were able to play them.

Lightforged however present an apparent contradiction to many people, a contradiction that was never fully touched on or explored.

I couldn’t agree more with this section. I don’t see any possible scenario in which the Alliance and the Horde wage war against each other without - at the very least - a third allied faction rising up in opposition, but I’m really not sure how that would work from a a technical point of view, as further dividing the playerbase would be the worst idea Blizzard could ever have.

I’m concerned we’re just going to get another warmonger character who exists to spearhead another exhausting faction conflict that the player has no choice but to participate in. At this point in the game, where Lilian Voss and Shandris are befriending each other in 10.2 and one of the expansion’s introductory quest has the respective lead NPCs of Exile’s Reach for each faction going out for drinks, I’m not sure how or why we would revisit that. But then again, I’ve never understood the obsession with the whole “put the WAR back in WARCRAFT!!1” thing necessarily needing to involve direct faction conflict. Personally, I’d much rather just break the factions down entirely, but it’s a bit late for that, too.

This is also true, and as you pointed out, not an isolated problem. My only hope with Velen in particular is that Blizzard doesn’t ignore the division among draenei who on one hand venerate their Prophet, but on another recognize that as a grieving father he probably shouldn’t have been the only one to make such a monumental decision as to accept the Man’ari back into Azeroth.

It wouldn’t be the first time his character was wasted, though. I’m still pretty sour over the fact that he didn’t get a single line of dialogue in the meeting between himself, Anduin and Tyrande, where you’d think he’d offer support to the draenei’s oldest Azerothian allies.

The old world is in desperate need of a full revamp. It’s bad enough that it hasn’t been relevant in more than a decade, but it bothers me that the most we ever learned about, for example, Anduin’s rule was the human heritage questline, in which we got breadcrumbs suggesting that he maybe sort of kind of cracked down on corruption in the House of Nobles. I won’t harp on about how many incredible opportunities Blizzard passed up on for Anduin and Westfall in particular, but the stagnant nature of the old world is deeply frustrating for players old and new.

Two years ago there was a fantastic fanmade map of a revamped Azuremyst in which the draenei have built an actual home for themselves. Right now we have all those WOD assets going to waste on a world we canonically can’t ever visit again in the state we knew it as because of that god awful scenario.
I just can’t imagine how jarring it is for a new player to log into such a vast, enormous world only to learn that 90% of it is so egregiously outdated that much of it can’t even be considered accurate to the lore.

Heck, what does Kul Tiras look like now under Jaina’s rule? What is Dalaran doing? GNOMEREGAN??

I literally forgot the Scourge invaded Stormwind because it was such a throwaway event, and after a 5 year timeskip we have no word on the state of Lakeshire or its inhabitants.

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Very good points overall.

I very much agree with the whole faction conflict point, keep the factions as a mechanic, but just move away from the facfion conflict storylines, maybe then flesh out each nation and race as they are now moving foward.

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Or remove them as a mechanic and a story point.

Gameplay is made less fun and more annoying with them, the story is made worse with it existing too.

Like you said, fleshing out each nation individually is far more interesting than fleshing out some large major faction. Also creates for more interesting individual dynamics between the people of these nations if the nations all have different relationships with one another.

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Not to mention that the main cast gets replaced expansion to expansion. Sometimes even patch to patch. Now you do get some characters that have major roles spanning expansions. Such as Khadgar in WoD and Legion.

It is why I don’t view Warcraft having a “main cast” as it depends on the context.

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A lot like situations we’ve had in Korea, and Afghanistan,where the Russians pounded the Taliban (who were supported by the CIA) for 14 years until they just gave up. Or for that matter the entire Cold War. And what was thought to be the likely scenario for Ukraine until America abruptly walked away from it.

Proxy wars tend to roll that way. And for most of WOW’s history, proxy conflicts were represented by the battlegrounds swuch as Warsong Gulch, and Alteraac Valley.

Yeah, I just completely disagree with that. Even people who don’t “care about the story” care about seeing their old favorites around. It’s why they bring back Illidan and will eventually bring back Sylvanas. I’m genuinely surprised they didn’t bring back Arthas and part of me suspects that they knew people would simply consider him tainted by the trainwreck that late Shadowlands was storywise.

Next expansion seems like it will have Thrall playing a major roll, judging by blizzcon promotional material, you will see plenty of non-lore people happy that he’s getting focus again, despite Thrall being eyeroll inducing among many people who are heavy into the lore.

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Yeah but at best, it doesn’t REVERE the old lore, it’s trying to remix it into awful versions that don’t respect or contain the substance of the original writing. That isn’t respect. You cannot tell me that stuff like the writing of Sylvannas in SL was done out of respect for Warcraft’s lore. You can’t pretend like Bastion, or all the retcons of nature lore in Ardenweald, or the butchering of characters original identities to make them new people, was -at all- anything close to respecting the original lore. It’s more like what the Witcher netflix series was: people taking what existed and trying to bulldoze and reshape it into a podium for their own bad writing placed over other peoples work.

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Truthfully I don’t exactly get the focus on retcons, and I’ve never seen the Witcher Netflix series so I don’t really get the comparison either.

Warcraft does retcons like you or I drink water, there have been retcons since the jump from Orcs vs. Humans to Warcraft 2 and they’ve never slowed down on that. If you want to critique the constant use of retcons fair enough, I also think they’re used far too wantonly, but that’s a problem with every single writer Warcraft has ever had and not specifically SL. The writing of SL was sloppy, the retcons were blatant, and the overarcing story was boring we know we agree on that. But I feel you’ve latched onto poor writing and attributed it to either disregard or malice for the history of the Warcraft franchise, when I can’t see much of that myself.

Shadowlands was no attempt to bulldoze away the past and replace it with something new, it was finding any excuses to do the past but again. Even if you hated the stories they were at their core trying to strike at familiar tones and themes. If you look at my post, I placed the SL mention firmly in the tone section for a reason. The writers clearly wanted to emulate the past, and in doing so made the worst expansion storyline I’ve ever seen.

In my opinion an expansion within the realm of death was a doomed idea from the start, there’s no way to do it without disappointing people. The mentions of the Shadowlands in Warcraft’s text Pre-SL are vague and disconnected, at times they contradict themselves. Everyone had their imagined view on what the afterlife in World of Warcraft may of looked like, and none of them could be met by what we were presented. Instead of latching onto those old tones and characters and trying desperately to make them interesting again, they should of just let go and tried doing anything fresh.

When you mention a franchise being ruined by constant reboots and rewrites that’s essentially what we’re asking Blizzard to do when we say we want a ‘return to how things were’ or a larger focus on old lore. The old lore exists, it is what it is, and we can build off of it into different things. I’ll be honest and say I’m not a massive fan of Dragonflight’s story, but I’d be lying if I didn’t say it’s a breath of fresh air after two expansions so stuck in the last decade.

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I think conflating issues with specific retcons with ‘all retcons are bad’ is a bit of a deflection. Of course Warcraft is built off retcons, and plenty of them have recontextualized massive portions of the setting, like the transition from Wc2 era lore to Wc3. They’re certainly not all bad. When they actually open up a broader and more interesting narrative, they’re fine. Over the years however, the majority of the retcons just don’t do that. And at least Warcraft 2 to Warcraft 3 had the justification of still being a fairly young setting being changed between releases of a full game, which is fairly different from a frequently updated MMO.

Shadowlands was doomed from the start because even if it had been consistent with prior lore, it’s still a bad idea to explore those places in the level of depth as a launch zone / continent as it scrubs away a lot of the charm. However, I think it is misguided to say that the Shadowlands we got actually is about old tones and old lore. Bastion is effectively the only thing with any basis from prior lore, but it is a massive stretch and Spirit Healers certainly don’t feel like the same entities they were prior after it’s retcons.

Revendreth def wasn’t made FOR Kael’thas, Bastion wasn’t made for Uther, and Ardenweald certainly wasn’t made for Ysera. The actual bulk of pre-established lore about death went entirely against everything they did. So it’s not the reverence for old characters made these things bad. Sloppily inserting them into these zones and giving them stories that often didn’t even understand their original lore (which to be clear, is disrespect for the characters and not reverence) compounded on top of the zones themselves being retcons and boring doomed the xpac.

I think most people agreed at the time that just building on the afterlives already set up in lore, and acknowledging those spaces, would’ve been much more preferable. Instead we got none of what was already written, and the characters were dragged through the dirt into stories just because they wanted to sell them to you, actively doing their stories a disservice.

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