Yes, pointing out the small handful of people who post on the forums doesn’t really help you. Most players avoid the forums, and this post is only 160 posts long, half of which are the same people or those who prefer melee. You keep eluding to a mass playerbase wanting ranged… which I’ve now repeatedly pointed out to you is a wild assumption, the same ones you complained about the melee players making.
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Go check comments/replies in various forums.
Check both US/EU versions of:
GD
Class Development
Hunter
Go check the equivalents on MMO-C. And more…
I can guarantee that you will find more than “a handful” of people who mention things they want back, such as those above.
Out of the two of us, you’re the one who assume things based on nothing but your own ideas. You assume the reason for why RSV was removed.
You assume that there are only a handful of players who are asking for the above. You assume that only a select few want/like ranged combat(or varieties thereof).
You haven’t actually read through any other topics on related subjects if that is your claim…
Not only talking about this topic. Go ahead, check other related ones on other forums/sub-forums.
So…all those who played as Hunters in the past actually hated ranged combat? I mean, there was nothing but ranged alternatives for the Hunter class in the past… and many still played as hunters, before they introduced a melee spec.
Were they all just secretly hating on ranged gameplay?
Or, are you saying that all those who used to love ranged combat(using weapons) have suddenly changed their minds? That they now hate it?
I’m not saying that every player in the game wants ranged alternatives for the hunter class. I’m not concerned with players of other classes. They don’t matter here, in a discussion about the Hunter class.
But yeah, keep going with this argument mate…
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If you want to continue this stupid argument, the vast majority of hunters play bm and could care less about mm or sv. Quit making up numbers to support your argument, it’s silly and the same thing you’ve accused the melee players of doing.
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Um, woah. Yeah, it was, and you lose credibility when you make hyperbolic claims without doing the research or having the experience.
Ranged SV starting getting popular around Wrath 3.1, which is when Black Arrow was introduced, allowing SV hunters to more freely use LNL, but before that in 3.0.2, there was Freezing Arrow because they didn’t have trap launchers. In addition, you needed a SV hunter to carry Hunting Party to speed up the mana regeneration of the raid. Sure, MM hunters and ArPen caused more damage, but you needed some fairly specialized gear for that (DBW, anybody?), whereas ranged SV hunters were good out of the box. Granted, SV hunters weren’t the go-to spec yet: they weren’t able to use ranged weapons in melee, volley was kind of a kludge, DK and mages were dominating the crap out of ICC, and it was still the age of ArPen-using melee specs like rogues, feral druids, and the like, but they were respectable, and you had a feeling it was going to get better. (You could feel it in the forums too - SV hunters were fairly optimistic about their class: it felt good, but just lacked a punch.)
When Cataclysm hit, hunters got a taste of Aspect of the Fox, allowing them to cast on the move, and they were finally able to use ranged abilities in melee range. In addition, they also received an ability that allowed all casters to move while casting for a few seconds. The thing is, hunters made huge strides in mobility: this is when hunters became even easier to pick up and play than they were before. The difference between a below-average player and a good player wasn’t as pronounced as it would be for say, a WOTLK-era feral druid, which made the RSV hunters very popular. Aside from macroing Fox into every Cobra and Steady Shot, then back out to Dragonhawk for your focus spenders, there wasn’t a lot of complication to hunters. Because the mastery for SV hunters was just flat-out better than MM, SV became the raiding spec while MM was still used mostly for PVP; MM had great single target, but awful AOE and the loss of ArPen, piercing shots, and a lack of direction really hurt the spec for a while. For Cataclysm raiding, SV hunters were consistently in the top five DPS - BM and MM hunters didn’t even compare.
Then we’re moving on to MOP - we’re now two and a half years into RSV domination, MM and BM were worked to use the SV model of “focus building shot to focus spenders with LNL-esque effects,” but SV’s mastery is too good, aspect of the fox is gone, and for CM dungeons, raids, and scenarios, we needed a spec with good AOE (Serpent Spread), good single target (Explosive Shot), good CC (traps with a shortened CD), and good mobility (baked into the skit). BM had something along those lines, but it was all tied to the pet, and MM’s AOE was still crappy compared to the SV, so when you were doing challenging PVE content, you went with SV. Ranged SV dominated the crap out of this expansion and peaked in Siege of Orgrimmar with the Good-Lord-Almighty T16 4pc, and it was strong before that set came out. Tier 16 (RIP fam) made SV a wrecking ball: sure, you could use it as BM or MM, but it really shone as SV.
Then came WOD. I dunno, I didn’t play it. I had so much fun with MOP that I burnt out and took a break. Had I known it was the last time I’d see RSV, I would’ve stuck with it.
From the end of WOTLK to the end of WOD, RSV was a very popular spec for eight years. Now, I can empathize with the reasoning behind shelving it: too simple (which it was), nowhere to take it (which was true: aside from some mobility tweaks, the spec didn’t change much since its inception), no skill curve (which was true, as it wasn’t subject to movement penalties), unimaginative (which it was…sorry, RSV, I love ya, but you dull), and thematically messy (which it was, but not as messy as throwing a grenade into melee range while fighting with a spear).
I just wish the devs would take it off the shelf and let the players decide for themselves: it wouldn’t hurt to bring it back as a fourth spec, if only to see how much it was missed (if at all).
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Now who’s assuming things?
I’m not making up numbers?
I’ve only said that, based on what strengths such a spec would provide(mechanical and otherwise) combined with what other players have said in their replies/feedback towards the hunter class for years now, I said “it’s fair to say that a spec which provides those things, would most likely be a fairly popular spec”.
Too simple?
Nowhere to take it?
No skill curve?
Unimaginative?
Thematically messy?
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Yeah. Ranged SV was basically the Old Faithful of hunter specs. These are not bad things: there is nothing bad about going into a new expansion and finding out that your already-good spec hasn’t been messed with.
So when you learned the one trick SV had - how to abuse LNL - that was it, you were done. No stacks, no DOTs, no charges, just focus, one proc, one CD, and that’s it. At that point, you had a fully mobile ranged DPS with not a lot to keep track of and a mastery that was a straight-up damage increase. Look, I know how it goes because I’ve been playing it for a very long time: you spent less time worrying about your class and more time playing attention to the raid. This simplicity isn’t a bad thing.
The next six years after Wrath were all about two things: make SV more mobile, make SV hit harder, make LNL proc at least once with BA and traps. This was your moveset from Cata onto WOD: explosive shot, black arrow, serpent spread, use CC on adds, wait for LNL, rinse and repeat. Again, don’t fix what ain’t broken.
After getting rid of Aspect of the Fox, there weren’t a lot of real changes to SV: we got additions, but nothing that broke or revolutionized the gameplay. Every expansion, the SV gained mobility and damage. The kit was very strong out of the box and nowhere near as dependent on talents the way specs are now. I was here when SV was in its heyday: aside from a few trolls, nobody really knew what to add to the spec that wasn’t thematic (like Stampede). There was nothing to add to it.
And yeah, it was thematically messy. SV hunters were a DOT class that saw its DOTs hitting harder and lasting shorter year by year. By the time MOP rolled around, we were basically mages with guns. Not saying this isn’t cool, but it was messy.
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SV had no DoTs??
Agreed, was not a fan of it either. Hence my suggested design above.
Btw, no matter what you thought about the old RSV from WoD or earlier. That wasn’t where my focus was at with the reply I made just above here.
When I wrote those things:
Too simple?
Nowhere to take it?
No skill curve?
Unimaginative?
Thematically messy?
I meant for you to compare that to the linked concept in that same thread. Here it is again:
Feel free to read through the suggestions and get back to me afterwards.
Would such a spec be “too simple” or would it be “lacking a skill curve” ?
Considering that linked concept, was there “nowhere to take RSV”, going into Legion?
Would you say that such a design equals being “unimaginative”? If so, feel free to also mention why.
Is such a concept thematically messy? Same as above, if so, feel free to mention why.
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I’m okay with it, I guess. SV was a very meat-and-potatoes spec, so I see ranged SV and think “Can I move and shoot? Are the basics back? Good.” That’s what I liked about ranged SV: it was so basic that pumpkin spice lattes were baked into the talent tree.
Am I fine with a spec that lacks a high skill curve? Yes. If you want to introduce new players into WOW, you’ll need a spec or two that’s very simple to play and has little danger of underperforming. Ideally, this spec will be seated alongside two progressively more difficult specs so that the new player can assuage his curiosity and try something more complex without having to level a fresh toon. It could be argued that BM is that spec, but seriously…ugh. My feelings on BM are not unlike those of fried eggplant: I’m sure it’s good for you and people seem to like it, but no thank you.
And yeah, no DOTs, not in the way that warlocks have to juggle them. Once you applied Serpent Sting, it was refreshed by Cobra Strike, and if you were using Serpent Spread, just shoot everything a second time - there was a decent amount of front-loaded damage that ensured that it was worth the Focus.
It is unimaginative because it’s still based on the same concept. This isn’t a bad thing - sometimes, all a person wants is a simple spec so the game can be enjoyed.
I can see that you haven’t actually looked at the linked concept.
What is “skill curve” to you?
My suggested concept contains a design based around DoTs ofc. About either building them up in damage and/or duration. That in itself is the definition of a “skill curve”. If you don’t do it right, you would lose out on quite a bit of damage.
Also provided in my concept, by how you choose your talents(as well as how you utilize your baseline/core toolkit).
A few examples:
You have the Core Abilities
You have the Major CD which promotes DoT build-up mechanics as well as spreading DoTs, making sure all targets are affected.
You have the Mastery bonus which is not just a passive damage amp but allows for you to manage your Black Arrow, especially on multiple targets. As well as making sure that you focus on weakened enemies(for optimal output).
It also has a mid-range CD in the form of a trap(CD long enough for it not to be “rotational” but more “situational”) so that players wont find it annoying having to constantly aim-click an ability every X seconds just for damage.
It has a passive tied to the Major CD(for instanced PvP) which is proc-based, though not entirely random but is tied to enemy player actions(resulting in increased difficulty for optimal usage).
For optimal AoE-output the spec promotes manual actions of combining Tar Trap with Immolation Trap(targets). It’s should not be the “break-all” factor if you fail to execute this part optimally, but it is a skill-factor that determines your efficiency in combat.
Talent: T.N.T. allows you to opt out of the baseline Explosive Shot mechanics(allowing for multiple charges to be active on the same enemy at the same time). If chosen, it promotes a mechanic focusing on you manually building up the duration of Explosive Shot on a target. Which if done well enough, along with some luck in RNG, to sometimes rely on Explosive Shot for multi-dotting purposes.
Talent: Toxicology promotes an extra execute-mechanic tied to Serpent Sting for you to keep track of/maintain.
Talent: Dire Frenzy(not like the old BM version) switches your baseline bonus spender for another which in itself, is based on your pet and requires you to maintain for optimal damage.
Along with many more talents that are designed for you to make active, situational choices for optimal outcomes. Some of them being more passive in nature ofc as this is what some players like.
So basically…
When you say this, it makes it seem as if you haven’t actually read through the concept.
I can’t promise that you’ll like it. That’s entirely up to you ofc.
But it will achieve a lot of the things you mentioned earlier.
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That’s a lot of typing to basically admit between the lines that SV wasn’t the most popular hunter spec. Grats I guess.
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These posts just keep putting out pure comedic gold.
The delusion is real.
RSV was never great, and isn’t coming back.
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Ideally they could make Survival ranged or Melee based on talent points selected but that is putting way too much faith in Blizzard I am afraid.
Dude, all I know is that Blizz is going to keep refining the hell out of their melee hunters. I have no faith the Blizzard will even consider improving MM.
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Honestly,the debate of both RSV and MSV is like politics, eventually both sides of the argument just end up degrading with a “rabbit season, duck season, rabbit season” type of clashing and is repetitive at it too.
Honestly, I’ve found MSV to be funner than BM and MM in BFA because of it’s more direct damage and effects. I dont think that Blizzard would remove MSV before adding RSV as a separate spec, considering that there’s enough stuff in SV that could be made for both specs, such as one being more dots and effect based and the other being a pet-styled spec.
Blizzard please do NOT change Survival. Leave it melee. It’s my favorite class/spec.
Now the same can be said by those that use to play ranged Survival. That IT was their favorite. As many have said back and forth we need a 4th spec to give the RSV hunters back what they miss. Both sides have very good reasons to want Survival one way or the other.
I love MSV with my sword, bombs (the game calls them bombs, they are damn grenades). I likem. I also like the handcrossbow viper shot,
I know from listening to most of you trying to get Suvival back to ranged.
What they need to do is offer another ranged spec and keep Survival.
I like my pet (ok any hunter can get a pet. So do other classes like Warlock, DK
All in all, I love my melee Survival and hope in never goes ranged beyond the abilities it has now with the grenades and poison crossbow.
I would like to see a 4th spec that offers another ranged spec. Adding another dpr spec and keeping Survival melee you should cover a vast majority of hunters.
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Exactly.
As i’ve said many times before. We don’t need to remove MSV for RSV to come back.
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And I have said many times before that there won’t be a 4th spec unless all classes get one
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I’ve mained a hunter for a long time. I never liked MM because of all the long casting times and weak pet, BM was never all that awesome either. Ranged surv was by far my favorite spec. Nobody outside PVP used surv points on their trees. anyways.
I never wanted a melee hunter. I never will either.
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Same for me. I disliked MM because of the immobility it imposed; then things got worse when the effectively removed pets from the spec. I didn’t like BM because the pets were all the damage, so it didn’t feel like I was participating (this feeling got MUCH worse in Legion where my strongest skill became an annoying whistle).
SV was what I played - always.
I still can’t believe they *(&#)Q$ removed it.
Basically Blizzard took pets away from Hunters (MM) to satisfy Ranger type people. Then they removed any concept of a rotation from BM to satisfy people who were new to the game. Then they removed the last traditional Hunter spec (SV) to satisfy - I don’t even know who - a few hundred people who play MSV regularly, but didn’t main hunters before. There is nothing left of what hunters used to be because they tried to satisfy too many people - few of whom were the people who actually played Hunters.
The whole situation is absurd. What I saw as a Hunter no longer exists, but hell we have a Trapper, a Ranger, and a Remote Controlled pet class.
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That’s an archer type.
Ranger uses bow and sword.
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