100%
Everyone voting for season 2 is literally trolling. S3 the best option for the majority of content and the funnest to play.
Hope this isn’t chosen by 2k casual andy’s.
3 Likes
Judgment increases the damage enemies take from your Holy Power spenders by an additional 15%…thats Season 2 Dragonflight lvls. upgraded for season 3 the same as the current season 3 tier, it would likely read 25%…making it the exact same single target bonus as hitting an extra time for 25% effectiveness…(actually due to the 2nd hit not being affected by certain other bonuses its actually less…)
Judgment and Hammer of Wrath deal 10% increased damage and 15% increased critical strike damage. samething…scaled to S3 lvls this over a fight can produce the same or more single target dmg than the S3 2 set…
too say S3 is better than S2 in single target is straight up disingenuous.
too compare S3 and S2 without using equal values as tuning is going to be done, is the same as me saying “hey im gonna take off half my gear, when i use this tier, oh look i did less dps than when i had my full gear on and used this other tier! so that tier is worse…” no you just used less gear… (ilvl, S2 scaling in general vs S3 scaling), you have the S4 values somewhere? or you just pulling every comment you making about this out of thin air?
Vote S2
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hammer of wrath applying judgment to four enemies is not very impactful given that (in mythic plus or aoe situations) rets already spec into their judgment hitting multiple enemies.
you are ignoring the increased dmg of expurgation as well as the wrathful sanction dmg (which is quite significant).
no im not…i legit add they can be scaled to produce the same resulting dps…expurgation isnt that amazing or significant and from what ive been told you still run it even if S2 wins at 35% less dmg, its still 2-3% of your dmg instead of 3-4%. so all your really asking of the entire S2 2 set is to produce a 6% overall increase in dps, which single target scaled up it most certainly can.
You really think blizzard is going to properly scale the set bonuses?
listen man im not gonna sit here and argue with you over “will they or wont they” its what they said.
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Actually PVP by the numbers are a US situation. EU including some OCE servers like Frostmourne are primarily PVE. Honestly the PvP community makes up a little more than 17-20% of the total population…. And that is active “going for gladiator” PvP’ers . That population is very small.
It’s not even about numbers for s3 pvp.
The design is clunky and doesn’t work with the chaos that is pvp.
The only fix I can see that can make s3 tolerable in pvp is if they make expurg undispellable AND increase the duration
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They can’t even fix S3 in pvp, what makes you think they’ll tune S2 to be even close?
this has been a part of my argument since the beginning.
because as the poster above me just echoed its not about tuning for pvp. the fundamental design of S3 tier is straight up bad in pvp…can i see them tuning S2 as they said they would to be good in pve? absolutely.
the “fix” for tier 3 to work in pvp is to change the tier…the “fix” for S2 in pve is tuning. one is much more likely than the other.
Especially given: we’re going to update the power of the set bonuses to match the increased power of the new gear in Season 4, so any bonuses you choose will be tuned to be as strong as any others. <–their own words.
Vote S2
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ignore chickpea he has 0 pve experience in season 2 where this tier was played. he is pulling numbers out of his bum. do not engage with this known liar and bad actor. look at his logs and you’ll see the only experience he has in s2 pve is lfr sarkath
same thing applies to everyone saying season 2 was good in m+ most likely they havent played it and assume m+ is capped at 5 mob pulls at a time.
also keep in mind this isnt a pvp vs pve situation. not in the slightest. this is a casual/fotmer vs pve thing
good pvpers are voting for season 1, EU has the good pvpers
2 Likes
none of that has anything to do with my arguments.
me and you before you started cringe posting both agreed NA has more pvp ret players, i even presented the numbers…and you liked the post…
Vote S2
No the s3 set is literally bugged in pvp that’s what I’m referring to.
They haven’t fixed it and you expect some mythical tuning changes to fix S2 in pve (it won’t get fixed in tuning, the design is flawed and bad for pve)
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i expect them to do what they posted that is all.
the 50% nerf of it is not a bug, every pvp tier set is tuned to be that way, another reason why the mechanical changes matter much more than numbers for tier. unless your referring to something else.
You have literally said it was bugged earlier in this thread.
And there is not tuning pass they could do to S2 set to make it competitive, the design is fundamentally flawed for pve.
3 Likes
can you quote this? im seeing nothing like that from me.
thats just false, ive even given numbers as to how and where it would be competitive for single target as an example. other posters that even disagree with voting S2 have presented values where S2 is equal to S3. unless you mean competitive as in the overall dps between ret and others, in which case ill remind you even S3 doesnt make us competitive as we are currently at the bottom.
There is no number they could buff it to be equal in AOE because the design caps the number of targets to 4.
You could maybe get close in ST by buffing it like 200% or something, but at those values it does weird things to the rotation like valuing HOW over TV.
You’ve relied on this mythical tuning argument to try and provide a good argument for S2 but it’s not the tuning that’s messed up, it’s the design that’s bad. The design is why the tuning won’t happen. The design is why it’s bad.
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so first off, can we agree Ret is at the bottom of the meters regardless of what wins?
if we cant than lets just stop talking to each other cause thats a brick wall that just ruins any further dialogue.
If we can, than admit to yourself S3 will never be tuned to do 30-40% more dps than it does right now. it will not make you competitive as a whole in pve. Neither will S2 mind you, but those 2 tier sets can be tuned to provide the same dps increases if blizzard stays to the word, if you dont believe that its fine, thats not really the point im moving too. In pve regardless of what wins, to be competitive you will require tuning on rets base kit. For pvp if nothing changes, except getting S2 tier, thats already a huge boost to us as a whole. thats the difference. you can be very competitive in pvp with S2, but in pve regardless of what wins S3 or S2 you will need more than just tier changes.
First of all the current state of ret in raids is near the bottom, not the actual bottom. This is in large part due to design issues with stat scaling and talent trees. If anything the spec is being propped up by the tier set.
Ret is pretty competitive in m+ in large part because the tier set does a lot of damage in AOE. It also helps with one of rets primary weaknesses in m+, the inability to do ST damage while specced for AOE.
A lot of people have already explained that it doesn’t really matter what they tune s2 to, the design flaws prevent it from being competitive. Namely that it’s capped at a small number of targets.
Just like you’ve said the design of S3 prevents it from being competitive in pvp.
3 Likes
warcraft logs shows them near the bottom same as raid
just echoed what i said, that Ret will need more changes regardless of what wins.
S2 has a better shot design wise to get Single target numbers up while specced AoE and the AoE will need to be tuned regardless of what wins for pve.
when did being great at cleave become such a bad thing? the raid has more cleave fights than mass AoE’s and atleast this season in M+ its been up and down whether or not you can mass pull or take 5 mobs at a time.
AoE>S3 if tuned equally ST>S2