Retribution Paladin Design in 10.0.7

See one thing that isn’t discussed here is that some of these issues are also at the core of the other paladin specs, just that they are not as much of a problem because their specialization trees are kinda ok.

Right here, this alone is because of the odd choice of talents in the class tree versus the class tree and how tall the Class tree is compared to other Hybrid specs such as Shaman.

Most paladin builds take 27 points and leave like 12 points not taken, so more than 70% of the class tree is always taken and the talents that are swapped are all very impactful, yet things that paladins already had in shadowlands that they now have to opt out of for more throughput power.

Shaman takes at max 50% of the talents and all three specs take very diverse choices, something that paladin doesnt do as much because the capstones are very lobsided to the content you are doing instead of the specialization you play.

Ret suffers the most because a Healer and Tank aren’t always forced into taking full throughput and can sacrifice like 10% dps for a ton of utility.

Then there are just the weird utility talents found in the specialization trees instead of the class tree, which are just baffling.

Consecrated Ground in both the Retri and Protection tree with the Retri choice node would make for a great talent to be moved into the Class Tree out of Retribution and Protection tree.

Hand of Hindrance, a very lackluster spell in general but having some niche utility that would be fun for the class tree for all 3 specs.

Then the healing utility of Selfless Healer/Healing Hands and talents for Protection such as Hand of the Protector would make more sense in the class tree if they were redesigned in some way to be less broken for Protection Paladins.

In the Holy Tree we find the Soulbind Finesse conduit of Echoing Blessings, that should also just be available for both Protection and Retribution. The speed increase on Blessing of Freedom alone would be so useful.

As mentioned before, the placement of some talents in the retribution tree such as Selfless Healer/Healing Hands and Justicar’s Vengeance and Eye for an Eye, make it so most retri’s dont take it because its so far down the tree that it can be a DPS loss to take it.

Add to that that every single Specialization tree has Divine Protection or the replacement spell in it instead of there being a unified talent in the Class tree to take a very basic defensive is just crazy.

Divine Protection should be near the top of the class tree as a node to pick up so that Paladins aren’t without a defensive if not talented into it. I don’t think there is any other class that has no Personal in the class tree. Giving it maybe 10% more absorb wouldn’t be bad either, Protection paladins basically use it just as a Cheat Death half the time.

Divine Steed or Blessing of Freedom Baseline? Crazy how Paladins can technically opt out of it.

Also, Seasoned Warhorse has to be the worst talent point to spend over every single class right now. 1 Second on divine steed making it go for 3 to 4 is crazy when at the end of Shadowlands Divine Steed basically lasted over 6 seconds because of the Conduit: Light’s Barding.

Seal of the Templar is a very interesting node and not sure why it was changed to share a choice node with Seasoned Warhorse.

And as mentioned before Echoing Blessing being in the Class tree would be a nice start for mobility as well.

Divine Steed being on the GCD is also just another insult to injury on top of that we are forced to take clunky pony which obscures vision, versus older paladin talents from the past such as long arm of the law or pursuit.

One thing you forgot to bring up is the lack of Raid Utility the Retribution brings compared to the other 2 specs from Paladin.

If Retribution is getting a raid spot it is always as a second Paladin, never the first because of the Loss of DPS from taking Retribution Aura versus Devotion aura.

On top of that, Holy’s Aura Mastery is so much fun to use but is only seen as a Healing Cooldown with how it interacts with Devotion Aura, I would love to see a rework of Aura Mastery to still have the element of the current aura based power up and just give Holy Paladins a DR 3 minute cooldown that is not tied to the Aura Mastery mechanic. This would then free up all 3 specs to get Aura Mastery and maybe it some fun extra raid utility.

Blessing of Sacrifice seems great, but bad idea when you are the squishy ret paladin already being the first to die and Blessing of Protection is clunky to use when you need it to protect yourself from aggroing the boss over the tank in your burst.

Bubble is not a defensive as it is often used to clear raid mechanics that require an immunity such as traps or the sorts as well.

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Apart from all of that, sort something out with Divine Toll being in every specialization tree instead of just being a capstone in the class tree.

How on earth it is even regarded as a choice when basically 99% of all paladin builds include it is beyond me. Please just add it in the Class tree and work with the current capstones that are just a bit dissapointing at times.

Another point here is Relentless Inquisitor that is found in every Spec tree that should just be moved into the Class tree

And then maybe work on Avenging Wrath in the class tree. On Evoker, Tip the Scales has no prerequisites and it allows for a more dynamic choice lower into the tree after taking all the basic spells one wants.

Tip the Scales, Wildcharge/Tiger Dash, Rush of Chaos (Meta redux) all have no prerequisites and are found in the same place, leading to these classes having far more choices to pick down below. Something to consider for Paladins as well.

Hope my suggestions help the desingers work a bit on the Paladin Class Tree and particularly the Retribution Spec tree and specialization in general.

13 Likes

While I’m not a fan of the cons build and view it as a waste of space personally I respect that others may like it. Ideally I’d just like for some of the talents to be baked into the baseline version of the spell. Ret needs the attention first but Paladins as a whole aren’t in the best place right now either and I hope they get their moment under the magnifying glass.

Maybe u meant someone else but, im not trolling.

Obviously I’m not gona include the recent Radiant Decree BS that was a horrible hindsight issue shoulda been fixed day 1 or even in Beta.

We always said charger was hot garbage an merely a bandaid.
Our damage is so noticeable thanks to Wings being such a massive tell tale.( 2 min cd for single damage cd) terrible meanwhile I have several for my shaman an my Unholy dk… lets not even mention how many he has.
Most of our defensives laughably dispelled within moments of pressing them esp with Warrior and Spriest or priest in general running rampant. Which does include BoP an DS.
My least favorite is chosing between my single target or AoE spell with mandatory am shared resource(Holy power). Even with the buffs consecration is hot garbage in pve an pvp.
No this isnt trolling it just feels bad to play against or as one.

not you

the original blue letter post

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Ahh then my apologies <3

Consecration needs to go and I think they should bake healing into our main single target spender: TV/FV to up the holy juggernaut feeling.

I really want more consistent/single target damage (no more stacking everything Avenging Wrath/Crusader window).

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Will 10.0.7 be this season or do we have to wait until next season?

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As many have pointed out for paladins in general, having all of our spec trees containing the same talents is a problem, if a talent is supposed to be generic to the paladin class like Divine Toll, it really should be a class talent.

Currently the paladin class tree is awash with things that should be baseline, flat stack bonuses, and talents split into multiple nodes that don’t really need to be (Divine Steed). Realistically if designed well there should be enough flexibility and replacement that those shared spec talents could be added.

Divine Steed for example (should it remain) is a required talent with 2 additional modifiers, yet every other class in the game that had baseline class mobility tools still have them baseline.
Ghost Wolf, Charge, Demonic Circle, Sprint, even Death’s Advance were all kept baseline, yet Paladin has to spec into theirs. It’s a redundant talent point that should never really have been there.

9 Likes

My main is a Ret Pally and I am happy to see the devs finally recognise some of the major problems of this class spec.

NOTE I don’t expect that we will be jumped to top of the leader boards instantly, that isn’t what I want. But I would like to be able to be effective in fights and not dying while the rest of the classes around me shrug most of it off.

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I wonder if this rework is being done by the excellent developers that brought us the Guardian Druid rework.

So, good luck with the rework and you have my condolences.

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Agree. I think that the cd stacking and modifiers have to go we have too many. Fr dt seraphin es. That is very clear

Also things like exorcism, it should have replaced boj from the start.

I dont really see the “button bloat” but Im eager to see what they have in mind. So long as they dont remove what paladins have had since forever all good.
Remember they removed hammer of wrath LMFAO back in legion prunning. That is what they shoukd avoid.

3 Likes

One important thing to note and primarily what makes our utility, defensives, and mobility feel bad is that all almost all of these spells are on the GCD. Compared to other classes and specs I do not find them so drastically limited in the same way.

Removing the GCD from specific defensives (bubble), and mobility (steed) would be a huge QoL improvement for both.

That being said, I think it’s time to take a look at steed and replace or rework the ability. From a PvP standpoint it feels awful to need to use freedom before steed (two abilities both on the GCD, and ALL of our mobility) just to make steed usable when snared. It should either remove snares/roots on use, or be off the GCD to allow only 1 GCD to be pressed when using Freedom → Steed.

A lot of people also dislike Steed in general, and would prefer something more “holy light” based. Long arm of the law (45% movement for 3 seconds after judgment) was a crowd favorite. And this is during a time when judgment was a 6 second cooldown, and Ret had spammable snare removal.

I look forward to seeing what changes you all come up with! Thank you very much for relaying this information to us, and for taking notice that the spec was having issues.

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Dear BLIZZARD,

Please make this rework happen NOW. The reasoning behind this is simple, since you felt it necessary to completely gut and destroy a B Tier class in 10.0.5, you should remedy your mistakes and fix Retribution paladin in 10.0.5… Not in half a year.

If your AC breaks down, you fix it right away, correct? you don’t wait half a year while you’re melting your face off … … . especially if you yourself are the cause of the breakdown… … .

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Imagine having no idea what you’re talking about.

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10.0.5 was likely the halfway point for this patch cycle, as the patch naming convention would imply.

We barely hit 2 months of this expansion so far, so it’s safe to assume the 10.1 patch will be in 2-3 months. That means 10.0.7 needs to come out sometime in the middle of that, timeline 4-6 weeks.

I think you can live until then.

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Theyre working on it. Relax. Youve just been gifted a class specific blue post. More than most can say.

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Ret pvp suggestions & Ability Bloat

  • Consecration needs to be removed this ability imo should be Prot ONLY (Ability Bloat)
  • Remove Steed & Hand of Hindrance and replace with Long Arm of the Law & Burden of guilt talent passives (Removes steed & HoH but helps with ability bloat and adds more consistence with our mobility from Judgement & addition to the the Slow effect)
    -Remove Lay on Hands. (Ability Bloat don’t belong in arena and just a cheesy fantasy class ability all around.)
  • Every Third Judgement does the effect of Divine Toll (Removes Ability Bloat)
    -Shield of Vengeance additional passive so once it breaks it activates a passive Divine Protection Just merge the 2 ability’s together.
    This will eliminate ability bloat if they planned to take the 2 ability’s of the same talent choice but as of now its 1 or the other in the same talent slot choice
  • Judgement put it on a 9 Sec CD.
  • Remove Divine shield and replace it with more dependable defensives like Eye for and eye and guardian of the ancient kings.
  • Art of War - Passive gives us Instant Cast Exorcism or Flash of Light.
  • Exorcism - Make it a casted ability again so it relies on Art of War talent proc.
  • Clemency talent (Give it back) gives each of your Hand spells 2 charges. This means that you can use them twice before triggering the cooldown (but the cooldown will begin ticking as soon as it is used for the first time).
  • Seraphim just remove it and replace it with Holy Avenge
  • Increase our magic and melee defensives so we’re not a glass cannon and nerf wings and increase are over all sustain damage so ret’s have a kill go at every 2 - 3mins
  • Add a Leap, lunge or gap closing ability

-Personal want, remove Final Reckoning and bring back Holy Prism. Damages, heals and grants 1 Holy power.

k gl, those are my suggestions and or improvements rather than getting on here and throwing dirt with no input. Cheers.

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If they add Orc Paladins I’m totally gonna level one

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Thank you blizzard. Now give affliction warlocks something to do please lol

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Available Horde races is still a bit of a sticking point.
It’s realistically elf, tauren, or upright troll which in the modern day isn’t really many options.

Personally I still want to see round Panda Pallies lol

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