The thing is, there was a lot of “multicast” ideas introduced/refined in SL.
FV echoing, Tempest, Vanquisher Hammer(?), Divine toll main hammer having a chance to hit 3 times on cast.
And going into DF the same kind of theme was somewhat pervasive with keeping most of this and also adding option for judgement to “chain” to nearby targets.
DT might have had a better fit with this vision since its hammers could chain but within the current framework it’s not a particularly fun button.
Maybe it comes from being judgement itself?
Holy has judgement but DT is with holy shock which is holy specific
Prot has judgemeng but DT is with AS, which is prot specific
Maybe ret DT should be with something else? And if it is specific to ret it should be… Boj?
One thing for sure, the fun part of it on Prot is that it interacts with all the talents AS has.
Maybe this should be a focus as well, beyond 2hp per judgement.
Personally, I still stand by changing Hammer of Wrath into more of a Necrolord’s Hammer clone baseline.
HoW should have a 20 sec cooldown, pack a punch and make those HoW proc talents feel really good, while simultaneously help lower the HP generation.
Yeah, I could be wrong but I don’t think Divine Toll procs Infusion of Light for Holy, which makes it feel pretty lame now that Glimmer is gone. It’s nice to have it cast Holy Shock because that’s a big part of Hpal… but at the end of the day it doesn’t need too, it could just as well be a new ability.
I just don’t know how you’d do that without it feeling almost like a Blade of Vengeance clone, which I think is the problem of DT and Blessed Champion right now…
For me personally, the vibe of Paladins still feels a bit off in terms of playing a video game character because the fantasy hasn’t really been double downed on.
Blessings haven’t been pushed to the point of Shamans’ Totems.
Auras haven’t been enhanced, even cosmetically, like Druid Forms have.
Seals are non-existent.
Divine Steed still feels blah
WoA, Divine Purpose, Divine Storm and Tempest of the Lightbringer are a lot of fun, don’t get me wrong… it’s just Paladins are still missing that extra oomph.
Too grossly simplify it, I’d break it down to 3 categories:
The most important thing is the combat system, and it’s pretty good, which is awesome. But the whole package, that kindof “average score” just makes the vibes feel off.
Summon Abomb
The Hunt
Feral Spirits
Bladestorm
Convoke
Divine Toll needs to do more than just damage, imo. =/
Edit:
Not to be a Convoke clone, but for me, the Drought of Souls trinket from Legion always comes to mind for something I wished DT was… but still be able to move or something idk. Just an example.
I think Ret feels great in m+, very modern. I can understand the complaint that nothing has weight to it if you’re playing Herald, but Herald is ultimately a DoT spec so isn’t that how it’s supposed to feel? Templar meanwhile has Hammer of Light, what, every 20 sec or so? It does big numbers and feels like you’re calling down an asteroid on someone’s head.
BoJ and Judgment are in a good spot right now. HoW feels bad to press outside of Herald procs. TV and DS should have bigger numbers, but I think that’s partly a visual problem. Tempest of the Lightbringer, for example, splits DS into two numbers.
I love Radiant Glory, but active Wings should be a viable alternative. Baking Divine Wrath into the active versions would be a start. The whole Ret tree is a mess imo. Doesn’t offer many interesting choices.
Mobility is fine in PvE, but in PvP I’d prefer better movement over 20-yd FV. Steed of Liberty feels pretty good actually, but the cooldown is too long even with Divine Spurs, and Divine Spurs is too penalizing and shouldn’t cost an additional talent point.
But yea, I’m mostly with the monkey paw crowd on this topic. I think we have it pretty good and that we might not fully appreciate just how good until it’s too late. But of course if you hate the playstyle entirely then you have every right to criticize it.
Ret is on the verge of being good/great, it’s still missing a little something but templar is great, aside the weird lag on hammer of light
But I definitely like it quite a bit more than it’s DF counterpart
Talent selection, and especially capstones aside wake and maybe execution and their talent mods such as radiant, are a bit of a mess. There are cool talents sprinkled here and there, but there are also quite a few uninteresting or bad ones
As I said it’s on the verge of being good/great but missing something.
This sounds like a recipe to make every single spec in the game less fun to play, included ret, if there was one thing they did well in recent memory like between sl to tww is generally increase resource generation.
There isn’t a single spec that feels worse to play with more resources to use, even if you lose some damage on singular finisher uses, who cares. What actually matters is overall damage, and how the spec actually feels to play.
Overcapping is an overstated mostly irrelevant issue.
Overcapping less does not necessarily improve my enjoyment of the spec if that result was achieved in a way that feels worse to play. Which reducing resource generation usually does. Also, finishers still do significantly more damage for ret than generators. And even if they didn’t, that’s not necessarily an issue by itself unless you’re ignoring your spenders in favor of just spamming your generators.
If overcapping can be reduced with other means it’s usually better, frost dk is the perfect example for this, the nerfs to rune generation did absolutely nothing to runic power overcap as i said they would by the way, which i was completely right about, what they should have done instead should have been to make frost strike/ga work like ferocious bite and increase the runic power cap to around 150, that would have done something tangible for resource overcapping without ruining the spec gameplay, which annihilating resource generation definitely would have. Which was exactly what they did for a split second, only that they did it wrong, and added it on top of obliteration, when what they should have done should have been to either make it baseline, or attach it to pillar of frost, not obliteration, which already had a lot of stuff in it, and also add it to glacial advance.
In a few words, i can’t really think of a single spec that benefitted from lesser resource generation in terms of how fun it is to play. Some specs have been significantly reworked, and their generation changed, but for example, elemental, would have still felt better if they didn’t nerf ms generation on certain abilities, but especially bolt, burst, overloads, and ESPECIALLY chain. Sure, the rework was overall a partial success, but obviously comparing only resource generation in this case would be a oversimplification of what actually happened.
In other words, the world is not back and white, context matters, small differences can change a lot in the overall argument, and explaining everything down to the last detail gets tiresome. Exercise some logic.
your comparing a spec with two resource bars to ret which only has one source of resource.
also the specs your using as an example also have their own skill ceiling that makes its viable for proper tuning. ret doesnt have this.
fun is also ver ysubjective, a spec that is more fun to me with lesser resource generation is sin rogue which ends up being a calculative spec that makes energy economy a more important aspect of the spec. its okay for specs to have some sort of resource management, what im suggesting for ret isnt make it slow as sin, im saying that generators should be nerfed and spenders buffed further.
this is the easiest way to preserve fun and give the spec a skill ceiling so it can be properly tuned.
idk why you feel the need to be rude at the end of your incorrect thesis and oversimplification of various specs. youve been told this multiple ways by multiple people better in the specs you lurk and linger in.
its not good design to have our generators be almost as strong as our spenders
its bad design to have something like templar strike almost do as much as final verdict.
I am in full pvp gear which means NO HASTE (have like 8%) and Inever run out of stuff to press.
Crusade, radiant glory, 2charge boj and crusading strikes need to be pulled back because these speed up gamepkay too much to the point spenders just dont feel good.
Look at arms warriors now they are hitting big dam mortal strikes and exexutes. Their ms and execute doing HoL type numbers. Ret is a 2h melee fighter not this speedy half second gcd spammer. First patch of the expansion and my low haste levels dont matter because thr spec floods with hp. Imagime whats gonna happen in season 3
I think the current version of ret is great and I’m thoroughly enjoying it.
-Trading instant mobility for some ranged options is a trade I make happily as I feel it suits me better in most situations.
-I like the utility and think its much better than most give it credit for. I think most just don’t use it correctly, or perhaps don’t use it at all.
-The class tree updates aren’t perfect, but they are a big step in the right direction.
-People claim the class has no skill expression, but the range in output I have seen from similarly geared rets suggests otherwise.
-Radiant Glory is great- being able to use our cooldown every 30 seconds and how that feeds into the hero trees is fantastic and feels good. I don’t love the random proc on top of it, though. It usually happens after I’ve blown my load and it doesn’t really do much.
I’m gonna get hate for this, but so be it. Most of the complaints I see about ret boil down to “Ret isn’t warrior” or “Ret isn’t DH” or whatever other class. No, it isn’t and that’s a good thing. Variety and options are good things. If another class suits your playstyle better then perhaps that is the class for you. With how fast leveling is and the abundant catchup mechanics in place you could have that other class up to speed very quickly.
I returned to the game in the middle of DF season 3 from a long time away in anticipation of TWW. I played several classes (including the toon that I mained for 3 expansions) to see what felt right to me and to figure out what I wanted to main in TWW and the answer was ret. No class is perfect, but ret suits me very well. If it no longer suits you there is no shame in trying something else.
While variety is a good thing, it seems people had forgotten since we became more range reliant that lore wise we are indeed Holy Warriors and should be acting like it. We are not holy mages. We should not have a predominated ranged rotation. At least our AoE expresses the need to be in melee.
A paladin is a cross between a warrior and a priest. This means that much of our kit should be priest inspired- not just a warrior with a healing spell.
Let’s not forget that being in melee range is optimal. We are not useless from range like most melee classes are, but a paladin does need to be in melee to maximize their output.
Except much of our kit is barely noticably warrior inspired and too much priest inspired, espaicially in the tree’s that should be more leaning yowards yhe warriors side of things.
Yes, but 80% of our kit isn’t melee. Which is a problem, and not even attached to using a weapon, which takes us too far away from the warrior aspect of paladins. We atm look like priests in ceremony armor rather then paladins.
Most melee classes has ways to deal with being at ranged with instant gap closers. Most melee is not disabled at range as you state. On top of that, they are designed with being in melee range in mind.
