- MoP-era Long Arm of the Law
- BFA-era Word of Glory
After that, you can do what you want with the DPS changes.
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speak for yourself. divine toll is great. the other 2 i can live without though.
i dont want them touching final reck. its genuinely not an issue. final reck is the cooldown archetype we asked them to design around after their fiasco in bfa putting all cds on the gcd. final reck feels good to press and its satisfying seeing 450k crits in m+ on radiant decree.
It 100% is an issue because it has a 50% amp on it, so outside of FR your spenders do considerably less damage.
I am speaking for myself, and Divine Toll being replaced by Judgment cleave is just better, instead of being on a 1m CD you can judge 5 targets every 8-10 seconds. Without Ringing Clarity Divine Toll is not good.
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Final Reck is arguably the only good talent at the end of a line lol, the rest are either useless or just decent.
Is it “fun”? Not really but tbh very little things about legion ret have that “fun” factor outside of gigahits, I just hope unbound freedom is a talent and not removed from the game, unless short judge/long arm/emancipate make a comback but that’s unlikely.
I know you mean well with this post, but I just don’t understand why people think giving Paladin a larger % of damage reduction is good on a 1.5min cd? Paladin needs to be able to sit in their Consecration for ~15% damage mitigation AND the option to spend Holy Power for ~25% mitigation (because you are sacrificing your damage to survive). And yes that is taking into account that if they have Consecration down and their HP defensive spender on, they are at 40% mitigation, exactly the way it should be for a Plate-Healer hybrid who isn’t allowed to have damage or mobility. And yes that HP spender defensive would need to be something along the lines of: No Cooldown, 3HP, 25% dmg mitigation for 8 seconds. If you don’t think that’s balanced, remember that is 2 gcd’s, 3 HP, and zero damage being done, so just move them out of it or walk away from them.
I also like the idea that I read of just making Justicar’s a baked in to our #1 single target spender. No brainer there, good call.
In PVP it’s actually already only nerfed to 25% I believe. I think people are only complaining about burst in regards to PVP.
Justicar’s Vengeance should provide healing or an absorb to your Templar’s Verdict and not it’s own separate spender.
Yes. Even if it’s 50% of the damage done healed like it used to be, I’d prefer this. So many TV buffs I have to skip because I’m using JV all the time just to try and live longer.
Justicar’s Vengeance should provide healing or an absorb to your Templar’s Verdict
An absorb would actually be cool, instead of a heal. Because it’s essentially just pre-emptive healing. Or make it like a warriors Ignore Pain, which Arms has now, where it prevents 50% of damage up to a certain amount. Probably not too large, though.
Seraphim itself is pretty good but it’s not something you look forward to using or having to hit, it’s on the GCD, doesn’t do damage, it’s just stats, and that is okay, as a passive. It was best in SL Season 3&4 when you were able to maintain a large uptime
I honestly kind of hated having to remember to keep a 45 sec buff up. At that duration the amount of benefits you’d get from it would be so small, that that it would have no burst potential at all, and it would just a chore to keep it up for 5-8% extra DPS. It just feels like a maintenance spell. I’d rather it a passive you get on every judgement or alternatively every Blade of Justice for like 4 seconds.
increased movement speed when you spend HP, 15% per point up to 3.
45% would movement speed almost all the time would be insane. I’ve always thought it would be cool if they gave us a speed buff for overfilling on holy power. Like if for each HP you generate over 5, you get 15% movement speed buff, and can not be slowed beneath 80% for 2 seconds. Duration can be increased up to 6 seconds. That might not sound like much duration, but it would mean that when you can’t connect to a mage, or hunter, you at least can Judgement, and Blade your way there at a slightly increased speed. Or make it so every time you overfill on HP, Blessing of Freedom has its cooldown reduced by 1 sec. Feels crappy to run after players with 5 HP, unable to spend it on much except healing. Or give us an absorb shield for overfilling.
Because Paladins need a DR in addition to other defensives?
This isn’t going to happen, not to point out how OP that would be but having to also worry if I’m in my Consecration or not like Prot is not fun or good gameplay.
What other classes have to trade their damage for a DR, especially melee ones.
Think it’s just prot even, Holy is like other caster brez and is just casted like Ret.
Divine Toll is literally just Judgement on a 1 min cd with a cleave component that also grants HP.
The only spec it is truly interesting on is Prot due to it having a silence effect and cool animation.
I can’t see how it’s any different to OP’s suggestion of having Judgment simply cleave to more opponents.
It unfortunately is if the amp is too high.
People like it and it’s a cool ability I absolutely agree.
However it’s very hard not to admit that it also poses a significant issue with the Ret damage profile, as well causing not insignificant issues with burst in PvP.
At the least if kept (which I’m all for) it needs to be significantly less impactful with it’s damage amplifier.
having another button on a 1 min cd that generates 5 holy power feels good and contributes to ret paladin actually being useful in keys compared to how undesireable it was in bfa when you only had damage every 2 minutes, and “stacking damage modifiers” wasnt even a thing then. it was just wings.
idk. i genuinely dont have an issue with my core abilities doing less damage. its not too difficult to set up your burst properly and it feels super good to see 450k+ crits in aoe with decree. we still do significant damage overall.
Even with Divine Toll Ret still isn’t desirable in M+ and still has the lowest performance of any class in the dps role.
Ret doesn’t really need “another button” let alone one that performs an identical spell to another button.
Also yes that level of burst is an issue for the 1 min build, and that is not just a concern for overall damage profile.
I know you seem to like doing OP burst, but I wouldn’t hold my breath, I’d imagine it will be reduced, perhaps significantly if it even stays at all.
ret has huge aoe burst, however what stops it from being m+ “viable” is the lack of defensives and mobility not to mention the community perception of ret in content due to these issues. why bring ret if theyre gonna pop if a mob looks at them funny, why bring ret if they cant get past mythic raz winds on its own.
It only generates 5 HP in AOE, in ST it generates 4 over a period of time, it sucks without Ringing Clarity and I don’t think they are gonna bring that back. Judgment cleave would be the same thing, 5 HP in AOE and not use up a button for 4 HP over 15 seconds in ST. It’s just a button that you push every 1m that we could live without.
Definitely, AOE is good, ST definitely could use a buff.
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I absolutely agree, but I was simply addressing the other person’s statement that Divine Toll makes Ret more desirable in M+ when statistics show it doesn’t and in fact shows the opposite.
Retribution performed significantly better in M+ in BfA than it has since through SL and DF despite having access to Divine Toll.
It was still the worst dps class throughout BfA as well, however at that point it still actually out performed a large number of individual specs, as opposed to SL onwards where it’s been like bottom 4 of 36 specs lol.
I know a lot of Ret Mains want Exorcism as a replacement for BoJ, but as someone who plays a lot of Holy Paladin… I’d like to have some class fantasy of “Anti Evil” and “Paragon of Justice” as well.
I’d like to be able to be impactful vs Death Knights, Warlocks, and occasionally Demon Hunters.
I really think that Divine Toll and Exorcism + Empyrean Power are excellent talents for the Class Tree, they aren’t game altering decisions, but very impactful in their own ways.
For me, the ideal class tree cap stones would be:
Left side (Holy):
- Divine Toll or Exorcism + Empyrean Power (Necrolord Hammer)
Middle (Ret):
- Avenging Wrath: Might (Zealotry)
- But I would be curious to know how this could be amplified and made more fitting for a “Crusader” archetype.
- For me, it would be something like:
- Casting Wings grants you 20% crit and inspires those around you, increasing movement speed and all stats by X%. (Maybe divided among all allies within your aura)
Right Side (Prot):
- Seraphim / Dusk and Dawn (rework) / Zealot’s Paragon (renamed?)
- This side is a bit up in the air, but could be many existing things.
- Whichever ability isn’t it, could be pushed into the Holy/Prot talent trees to replace Divine Toll.
Sanctified Wrath could then be merged with Avenging Wrath: Might above, or share a choice node with Crusade, Avenging Crusader, and Sentinel respectively, like we had in the last 2-3 expansions. (Buffed if need be.)
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As for Divine Protection, this easily can be moved to the Class Tree as well because you have abilities to take it’s place.
- Ret: SoV vs Eye for an Eye
- Holy: Saved by the Light
- Prot: Gift of the Golden Val’kyr