Retribution 10.0.7 suggestions

Classes Paladin
1

Stacking modifiers: Very simple, remove modifiers of Judgment and Final Reckoning, instead have them do other things that won’t provide a massive 20 or 50% damage increase.

Judgment ,consuming the Judgment debuff should simply cause your next HP spender to echo for 20% of damage, maximum of once every 5 seconds. This would enable you to get rid of bad talents like Templar’s Vindication and fix Tempest of the Lightbringer, which is okay as a talent but having to always watch 20 yards further than what you are actually trying to hit is not fun when pulling an extra mob could wipe your group in dungeons.

Final Reckoning, don’t scrap this, it should just be a big burst of damage and then either provide extra holy damage for every attack or something like 50-100% crit, so it still provides burst damage but not near the 50% amp it used to have. This would give Ret burst on 1m windows outside of Wings. The passive could also be changed to be active while it’s on CD and provide a free crit on HP spender or something.

Button Bloat: Seraphim, Divine Toll, and Exorcism all contribute to this while not being buttons you really care about or look forward to hitting.

Seraphim itself is pretty good but it’s not something you look forward to using or having to hit, it’s on the GCD, doesn’t do damage, it’s just stats, and that is okay, as a passive. It was best in SL Season 3&4 when you were able to maintain a large uptime while just playing normally. Buff Art of War to 30%, Buff Zeal back to 4 attacks and remove Seraphim as an active ability.

Divine Toll, nothing but a glorified Judgment on a 1m CD, without Ringing Clarity it doesn’t have the weight it did in SL, scrap it, replace it with Judgment cleave up to 5 targets.

Exorcism, sadly this ability is not what it used to be, so fix it. Blade of Justice and Exorcism should be options for your other builder, either ST in Blade of Justice or AOE in Exorcism. Art of War works on both, you make people who wanted Exorcism back happy, you help button bloat and you provide an option.

Survivability: Honestly this is probably where Ret needs the most help. First, make Divine Protection baseline, 30% 1.5m, make Shield of Vengeance a cheat death with a 150% HP absorb shield that does damage when it finally breaks, long CD 5m. Justicar’s Vengeance should provide healing or an absorb to your Templar’s Verdict and not it’s own separate spender. Take Bubble and Steed off the GCD so you can actually use defensives or movement when you need to.

Maneuverability: Would like to see an option of Speed of Light or Divine Steed, because steed is very ugly, but can live without as long as other improvements are made. Cavalier and Seasoned Warhorse should be 1 talent, make it 1 charge and extra 4 seconds of movement. The other talent should be an option between CD reduction based on HP spent like Fist of Justice or increased movement speed when you spend HP, 15% per point up to 3.

Utility: Absolutely nuke current Retribution Aura from orbit, NO BENEFITS ON ANY DEATH, simply make it 3-5% haste or mastery or both and now Ret provides a utility no one else does. Some other ideas, change Lay on Hands into a group heal and then maybe 10-25% damage reduction. Bring back group healing from Divine Storm, 5-10%. Put Divine Intervention back in the game, make it usable after 2 people have died 1 per group/raid only so you can’t simply use it to cheese mechanics like before.

Talent improvements: This was kind of not mentioned but lots of poor or dead talents in Ret tree, Blade of Condemnation, merge it with Expurgation. Improved Judgment, merge it with Highlord’s Judgment, 1 sec 8% damage, 2 points. Boundless Judgment, too much RNG already, delete. Seal of Wrath and Sealed Verdict, too little damage and too far over to warrant even trying to take. Templar’s Vindication this talent is horrible, RNG coupled with low damage, never actually worth taking unless you MUST get to Final Verdict. Execution Sentence, it’s just no longer fun or interesting, having to squeeze all your damage into tiny windows and pray you don’t make any mistakes or get mechanics is not good gameplay, needs a rework.

CONSECRATION: Something needs to change, either it needs to follow you or it should come off GCD and have a lower CD so you can drop it whenever you please. Static ground effects suck, especially during Sanguine or if a tank needs to kite, they are just outdated gameplay and need to be brought in line with current game design.

7 Likes
2

Agreed. Seraphim is basically just “we kinda still want to keep a form of Inquisition” adds a meaningless button that doesn’t synch with the rotation and doesn’t feel good to play.

I’m not sure so much the solution, more I don’t know the implications of the Art of War buff in a situation where the ability has been nerfed so much this expansion.
What is the current value? 18%?
Nvm 12% increase doesn’t feel unreasonable, I like it.

Either something like this as a passive that effects the rotation, or alternatively a buff that effects the rotation after/outside of wings. (As to not provide as much effect during our burst and streamline the damage profile).

Yep, thought this back during development. Was never a fan of the ability and without Ringing Clarity it just makes it even more boring.
Even if it has an ICD on the cleave, it’s still not an active and it’s no less interesting which is a plus.

:ok_hand:
100%, I thought this idea could even implicate direction and theme for the spec tree which it is currently lacking. One side focuses on Exorcism and is AoE focused, the other side is Blade and ST focused, with the deep middle being focused around the 1 min build so you can choose to dip into it from either build should you choose (although they should both have appropriate competing sustained options).

Yes and yes. Although I’m somewhat reserved on bubble being off the GCD out of familiarity, but I can’t really think a reason to oppose it either.

My opinion differs a little here. Mostly in regards to SoV, personally I just think the damage has to go.
I take it you are implying you would get both? Or simply DP being 30% 1.5m cd as standard?

Personally if you mean DP just being baseline in general then I agree. I’m not sure about buffing it though baseline, I honestly think there shouldn’t be such variance between baseline abilities, so if Holy is DP 20% on 1min I think Ret baseline should be equivalent.

Although what this option does open, is for the SoV talent to be a choice node between adding an extra defensive (SoV) or buffing your baseline DP.
Although SoV still needs to just be reworked completely imo (adds an absorb shield component to DP?)

Yep

Yep, and just scrap Seal of the Templar

Definitely yes to the first. Especially with interaction with Speed of Light which I assume would be 70% for longer duration on same cd as horse, although I’d have to see it with also having the extra charge (I assume the horse talents wouldn’t just work with one not the other) as it could be too strong, or too much mobility.

Second might as well just be a flat % as we don’t have any spenders that don’t cost 3 anymore (that I’m aware of) so the text would just be superfluous. I think 45% could be too strong also, I think 30% would be a bit more reasonable depending on uptime. (Assuming they don’t change HP generation rate, which honestly could be a way to increase sustain damage and still maintain significance of spenders)

Personally I’m also open to the old Pursuit of Justice route, although maybe in todays world of everyone having 15% increased base movespeed maybe it needs be to 20%. With of course the snare/CC reduction built in to emphasise their ideology of Ret mobility.

Amen.

Yep, pretty open to this as well. Either something easy thst has value if they don’t want to work on it, or something more interesting/complex if they do. CDR is an option since we have mobility CDR from Evokers now, although I’d imagine CDR on major throughput cds might not be great to some classes which desynch their abilities? CDR on defensives doesn’t feel very “Retribution” though either lol.

Interesting, not raid I assume and still on the long cd?
Personally I feel LoH is pretty iconic so I don’t really feel it needs to change. It isn’t great as it is, but muh nostalgia :sweat_smile:

Yep why not. It’s not significant and Ret lacks sustained healing compared to similar classes that heal many times their health pools in an encounter.

Could be interesting for something like M+, have it so the death doesn’t count towards the timer and possibly provides the recipient an extra action button that enables them to rez the party as a wipe protect function.

Not going to comment on the rest of the talent stuff, but honestly I don’t mind Execution Sentence in theory, but in combination with how the spec works it just an extra button to press for a 1 min burst window.
I kind of wonder if they want to keep it, if it just needs to be a modifier to Final Reckoning.

Just have Final Reckoning hit with the AoE, increase some Holy Damage, and then upon expiration deal % damage of what was dealt during that period. You could even keep the Hammer animation.

Personally I don’t think it should be off the GCD, I’m just a firm believer that attacks etc should be on the GCD and not just something macro’d into each ability so they auto-cast.

Although personally I think firstly Consecration should only matter in AoE, for ST have it go back to being maybe something you cast if you have nothing else available.

Secondly I wish it was more interesting, perhaps if it made CS cleave as example (personally I’d prefer seals that do that kinda stuff but I don’t think seals will come back), or perhaps it does something to change up the rotation (since Ret ST and AoE is basically the same with a different spender).

Thirdly I concede, Consecration should be moveable. However to do so I think it does need a slight name change (it makes no sense that Consecrated ground would move), thus perhaps Ret gets a talent called Consecrating Presence which makes the Paladin either move the zone, it radiate off them, or simply it grants the Paladin a buff that frequently drops new Consecration zones.

Oh and in the context of the either mention of Blade vs Exorcism, I’d also be ok for Exo to drop Consecration from the enemy, but not requiring an AoW proc. Just have the talent on that side of the tree and rename it.
Although the negative there is it furthermore continues the same pattern of having no real distinction between an AoE and ST rotation.

Also to add, people seem to over look Recompense and SoV as promoting toxic gaemplay decisions.
Interesting they be through design, but I believe they negatively affect the role, and it’s ability to be balanced.

3 Likes
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I don’t want to get sidetracked about worrying what Holy or Prot have, they don’t matter right now, this is a Retribution focused rework and we need to fix OUR problems. DP should be baseline for Ret, either 1m 20% or 1.5 30%, neither option is OP as many other classes have the same thing or better.

During Legion Ret had the legendary that made SoV a cheat death and I don’t see any reason not to bring it back, the damage portion could go or be tuned I honestly don’t care, but it fits a Retribution theme.

They would hopefully just be the same ability with nothing but appearance being the difference, I don’t care if its just a glyph but give people the option of not riding the stupid horse, lots of people DO NOT LIKE IT!

Kinda forgot about that lol, but yeah 30% or 45% seems fine.

CDR stuff leads to degenerate gameplay, some classes will 100% benefit more than others and I’d rather just have something everyone can use, haste/mastery or both.

Lol no way in raid, just group, still long CD, it’s just an idea, because honestly now LoH has no real uses, sometimes you might save someone but will it really matter, saving your whole group would be noticed.

It’s more raid oriented cause there just aren’t a lot of options for wipe protection right now and this would help, this could be all Paladins too not just Ret.

Static ground effects have to evolve, they don’t fit gameplay anymore, and since so much of Rets AOE is stuck with Consecration now it has to be changed, off GCD, half GCD, moveable, there’s a lot of solutions but staying the same is not one of them.

4

But every paladin has access to Ret aura?

Have it follow you around. Not like the old WoD version. That looked so dumb. But rather like the fire effect you can get in the Cobalt Assembly. Which continuously puts down a puddle of fire whenever you walk.
Basically, the Paladin would leave a Consecration trail wherever they walked. The duration can be fairly low to avoid any problems. Like 2 seconds before it disappears.

Or alternatively, just give Consecration a very low cooldown.

6

Bring back Empowered Seals and break the Ret tree into two sections (it can separate where SOV is right now). One in a utility based Emp. Seal build and the other into a utility-based chunkier damage build (much like we saw in WoD). Know how much you love that talent, Renae ;p lol

2 Likes
7

I have main specced ret for 10+ years, and am plenty satisfied with the damage, and rotation. Although the survivability is terrible. I recommend bringing back the kings buff from BFA, which absorbs damage, refreshing every 10-20 seconds. I also recommend having the paladin auras part of the spell book and not on the talent tree. Pure damage specs are ignoring to talent devo aura.

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this post needs to be bumped - also a super simple solution to mobility is to just bring long arm of the law back thats literally it, who was complaining about this talent enough for it to get removed? Pala has felt awful since its removal. I also just want sustain damage to be much higher than it is, just like the good ol days when you burst its just the wings benefit - 20% damage 20% crit why the need to add all these stupid burst buttons

1 Like
9

I think consecration as its designed right now should change to radiate out from the paladin, but the consecrated ground proc from Blade of Justice should remain. Maybe add a talent that causes it to clear snares/roots from allies?

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I would like to see the current iteration of Unbound Freedom (pvp talent) just baked into current freedom then make the pvp talent 2 charges and you can’t fall below 70% movement speed to make it more in line with Dk’s death’s advance and honestly not make it OP since it’s a pvp talent.

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It should just have no part in Ret’s rotation period. Yes, it’s nice for a class to have a “core” set of abilities that all specs share and want to use, but Paladin’s already have: Judgment, Crusader Strike, Divine Shield, Flash of Light, and Hammer of Justice, to name a few. DKs have D&D, Grip, and DA. Warriors have Execute and Pummel. Paladin’s already have a ton of shared use abilities and adding another is just bloat.

This idea that Blizzard has that Consecration needs to be big for all 3 Paladin specs is honestly just poor design. Remove the Consecration talents from Ret, bake the AoE damage int DS/Exorcism. If they want the Exorcism DoT to spread there’s smarter ways to achieve that.

2 Likes
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Mine:

  • move Divine Toll to the class tree, replacing Dusk And Dawn (which is removed completely)
  • Remove Seraphim
  • Exorcism becomes a cleave proc that triggers when Blade of Wrath is used
13

Across the class, Divine Steed cd is 30 seconds baseline with two charges. This needs to happen if they keep Divine steed as our mobility.

1 Like
14

Bring back:

  • Pursuit of Justice: You gain 15% movement speed at all times, plus an additional 5% movement speed for each current charge of Holy Power up to 3;

  • Emancipate: Unshackles your spirit, freeing you from one movement impairing effect;

  • Speed of light: Increases your movement speed by 70% for 8 sec;

  • Burden of guilt: Your Judgment hits fill your target with doubt and remorse, reducing movement speed by 50% for 2 sec.

  • Sacred shield: Protects the target with a shield of Holy Light for 30 sec, absorbing up to (186.6% of Spell power) damage every 6 sec. Only one target can be affected at a time.

*New Talent - Divine Armor: 50% of your armor also contributes to reduce magic damage.

Make so we have to choose between some of them so we can’t have them all, obviously.

Also remove defensive CDs from the GCD.

4 Likes
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Ultimately I think it might be futile to suggest specific talent changes to the spec because what I actually want is a complete overhaul.

I don’t want nodes shifted around, Im hoping for a complete redesign.

1 Like
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Correct me if i am wrong, but i am pretty certain Blizzard said they are remaking Ret’s talent tree from scratch. While that will probably not result in an overhaul, the spec will likely be very different from how it works right now. Especially if they are planing on sticking to their bulletpoints. Ret is built upon stacking damage modifires, and Blizzard are planing on changing that.

3 Likes
17

We need the free Word of Glory to work in the same way word of glory worked in BFA - you and the two (2) other lowest health part members.

Seraphim should just be a CD with no holy power cost. I’d be happy for them to make it a 1 min CD over 45 second to do this so I could macro it with AW so I get the benefit every second AW.

Ret Aura - it’s garbage. I would prefer to see this have a % to reflect a % of damage taken to the attacker as holy damage.

We need a raid buff again - something that matches mark of the wild of battle shout.

We need better utility than the blessing that slows, a long cd stun, and blessing of sac.

Most Ret paladin utility doesn’t feel engaging fun or like it’s part of a dos rotation.

Our battle res costing holy power is garbage too.

No none damage ability for ret should cost holy power.

18

It only costs HP for Prot which keeps it completely in line with the other tank bres’.

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I whole heartedly support anything that takes out things like Seraphim. Talk about an unfun, uninteresting button to press. It just is something you have to do every minute as your big dmg stuff resets. Super unfun.

That and exorcism. It is such an afterthought when you are doing your rotation in its current state.

As for survivability, I honestly don’t care what you do. Just give me something to survive or reduce dmg in high keys and raids. I feel like I am wearing paper plate armor.

4 Likes
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In DF, and that was a mistake.

No thanks, if Empowered Seals comes back it should be a PVP talent only, it was not fun at all in PVE content.

No they just said a substantial rework, there’s still good talents I don’t think they will scrap everything, especially things Ret has had its whole life, like say Art of War, but who knows.

Why? Seraphim is better just as a passive from Art of War procs, I don’t want all these stupid CDs bogging up my opener, I want to be to hit Wings, and maybe one other button as a CD and then worry about my rotation. Out of all the 1m CDs, Seraphim is the least engaging, doesn’t do damage, doesn’t change your rotation, doesn’t do anything but provide stats, it’s boring.

My suggestion is better, this does nothing, the damage will never be enough to be worthwhile and only one person would even be taking advantage of this, tanks.

Ret’s brez doesn’t cost HP it’s a cast, HP cost is Prot and maybe Holy.

21

Since ret can’t have the mobility of rogues then remove combo points too thx.