Like Ret…Don’t like Ret…that’s w/e, this re-work has been an absolute failure.
Honestly, it is ultimately Blizzards fault…but also the communities. Ret has been trash for a long time (I know I have been playing this guy since vanilla), so I understand everyone freaking out when they see Ret preforming (and yes in need of tuning)…but the massive amount of boohooing while Blizzard tried to figure it out has lead to hasty, messy and disappointing changes leaving Ret in this IDK WTF this is space.
What were the issues they wanted to address? Mobility, Stacking multipliers, Defensive CD’s, Talents…okay well what’s the take away from this so called “rework”?
Mobility:
BoF can now be dispelled…so that’s useful
Judgement adds 10% move speed…which you will never notice because BoF can be dispelled
Steed is off GCD…still doesn’t remove roots or slows so now you can hit it 2 times really fast as you stand still…maybe useful if BoF wasn’t so easily dispelled.
Stacking Multipiers:
Blizzard is too scared to just up our damage so we still have plenty of these that we are somehow suppose to synchronize in an attempt to do any type of burst…which can result in too many multipliers triggering at the same time resulting in imbalance.
Defensive CD’s:
*Okay, at first this did seem like the one thing they got right…until they butchered it with a constant stream of steady nerfs leaving ret not feeling so tough anymore.
Talents:
*Well, to start PVP talents got gutted and the ones that had any value got nerfed to the point of being as useful as BoF.
*The talent trees in PTR started off looking like they may have some nice options allowing for customized play style, but that went away quickly and we are left with all being forced to use the same talents.
Honestly, this would have been better executed by slowing implementing one change at a time, get it right and move on to the next. The idea was admirable but disappointing. The player community was quick to condemn the changes and Blizzard folded to the complaints resulting in a sub-par outcome. My recommendation to other classes is don’t do it…ask for one change at a time so the community and players can adjust without all the negativity that this “re-work” has brought. I mean honestly, I have to check the WoW Hotfix page everyday since day 4 of the “re-work” release just to see what nerfs I have to deal with today…don’t believe me go look at the Hotfix page. After all this time waiting for balance and positive changes, it might be time to move on from Azeroth.
From mid to bottom DPS in both Heroic & Mythic to a top 5 DPS in both difficulties
Less useless buttons to press (Exorcism, Consecration)
Passive cleave to spread its AoE damage into the rest of the kit instead of stacking it inside double Consecration-Divine Storm spam
Massively better defensive so it doesn’t die the most in all forms of content, going from the #1 dying spec to the lower end of the death spectrum, surpassing most tanks at one point
Mobility that’s off the GCD to match other specs
20yd range minimum on basically every core ability so even when you’re not in melee you can still play the game
I understand your complaint is likely PvP based, but even then that’s completely nonsensical, since the data from the past 2-3 weeks has shown that Ret is clearly, objectively, in a far better place than it was pre-10.0.7 in PvP.
It’s objectively one the best DPS specs in the game right now in all forms of content. If you don’t enjoy it that’s fine, but saying it’s a failure is absolutely ridiculous. I wish Survival/Shadow Priests/Frost DK, and any other spec that’s in dire need of a rework, could get the one Ret just received.
TDLR: BoF can be dispelled it seems, and you’re not happy about it
Ret wouldn’t be the same without the burst, and it’s part of why a lot of people play the class. I’m glad it’s in part still there. Once crit nerfs, and the April 11 nerfs come in our burst will be even less.
They are taking away even more defensives.
But yea, there are a lot of talents that just seem plain required.
I would have rather seem them nerf the fact almost all of our abilities have a 20 yard range. You can complain about mobility, but the fact almost everything we have is like a 20-30 yard range is ridiculous and kind of makes mobility almost pointless. It hardly feels like a melee class. There is still an advantage of getting into 8 yard range since we get more HP for Crusading Strikes, but even after an enemy leaves range I can spam both builders, and spenders for another 5-10 seconds from a pretty huge distance.
Final Verdict, and BoJ should have been nerfed to 15 yards when talented, instead of some of the other changes.
Thank you for your response. I would agree that for PVE content the fact that Blizzard finally gave Ret a viable cleave and some range has made them better in PVE…however based on your response it is clear you don’t play Ret in PVP.
To say that taking stead off GCD puts Ret on par with the mobility of other classes is indeed “nonsensical” and also laughable. Read Blizzard’s description of the class on WoWHead and it clearly states they have low mobility and lean on their defensive CD’s (which they continue to nerf).
Also, I would like to know what “data” you are referring to regarding PVP and Ret being in a better place. Just because Blizzard made mistakes on how stacking multipliers reacted in PVP (resulting in lobsided damage that had to be adjusted) by no means indicates they are in a better place, because as we can see they continue to get nerfed. Which brings me back to my initial point that the rework was a failure in PVP. If it was successful we wouldn’t be butchering and nerfing abilities on a daily level to attempt to put a quick fix bandage over the mess they made (not an opinion, but a fact being we can see this on the Hotfix notes over the past 2-3 weeks).
There is NO consistent “data” to support Ret being “better” in PVP because after only 4 days Ret has been hit with nerfs almost daily. You can not implement a change and expect to have any meaningful data to support the outcome of the change without the appropriate amount of time to determine if the change had the intended outcome.
Also, to make any claims about its position in the game regarding DPS would be a challenging point to make being Blizzard continues to nerf damage and abilities daily (where they are today will not be where they are tomorrow). The points I made in my post were ones made by a player who actively plays Ret everyday in PVP and arenas and can see the mistakes made and the continuing adjustments to try to fix those mistakes due to incompetence.
I follow many many many you tubers, and Ret advocates on social media that also share my opinion on the so called rework being a failure in PVP, but once again thank you for your opinion.
Ret was a literal god the first 4 days after the rework. It was the best melee, honestly it was the best dps, after the first round of nerfs. They have the data, everyone was experiencing the data with a hammer to the face. Freedom being dispellable sucks, but you can do almost 100% of your dmg at up to 20 yards, which is a huge huge huge improvement to being limited to melee range. Our dmg comes in every 30 seconds, with wings every minute, this is nuts its a huge quality of life change.
I honestly doubt you can find someone that is high rated in pvp saying the rework is failure, you’re just saying that to try to add some merit to your opinion. You can say you don’t like the changes, but the changes have been a net positive in almost every single way for ret pallies.
Hello,
Thank you for your opinion, but this is definitely an opinion. Just like many of the players on You Tube and social media echoing what I have mentioned. I clearly stated that there were some improvements, but many of which have been nerfed. This is not an opinion this is factual based on Blizzard’s actions…and yes there are many players who feel the same way I do(Duelist this season) in many of the factual points I have made.
Making blanket statements that everything is great, and that we don’t continue to see Blizzard make constant nerfs to fix their failure is honestly just ignorant. The rework lacks synergy and all the changes made in PTR for 2 months didn’t stop Blizzard from making constant daily nerfs to try to fix their mistakes.
This is not opinion this is fact look on hotfix page it has been non-stop. If the rework was some great positive success why are we making nerf after nerf after nerf since launch…because of poor decisions that were not functional…bottom line.
The facts are the facts, have your opinion but if this “re-work” was such a success we wouldn’t see these nerfs occurring everyday. They miscalculated, and were sloppy and now I have to make sure I visit the Hotfix page everyday to see what I need to adjust in order to play my main because they can’t get it right. Last reply I’m allowed so…#dropmic
What are you expectations for Ret in terms of where we’re supposed to be?
Because from all ends of the spectrum, for me, we’re still A+ - S tier in both PvP and PvE content in terms of damage and survivability. Horse being off the GCD raising our mobility from a solid D to a nice B+ or A.
I’m miles ahead on meters, I’m stomping nobodies in random BG’s and I’m cleaning house in Solo Shuffle. Ret not only plays great but feels great.
And before these hotfixes we were just oppressively overpowered in PvP. Absolutely busted.
My buddy adores his ret and honestly plays PvE more and the people who play PvE are happy ret is out of the dumpster but I agree with you on everything else.
Blizzard caters to mob rule and mob mentality, if more than 30% of the player base is pissed off at how well something is doing, especially seeing as how garbage that class has been doing for literal YEARS, they are going to nerf it and not think twice about the damage they do to the ret community.
Someone in the thread that ret cause an uptick in representation, yes! Imagine a large group if people finally coming back to the spec they love cause its fun and actually hoods its ground against the other classes, what a surprise right?
I feel bad for ret pallies, I main a hunter and my class is known for face pulling every mob and boss acrosstevery expansion but I dont get 1/1,000th of the prejudice and hate ret paladin players get and its sad
I believe that was his whole point.
Its disingenuous to qualify the whole rework as an…
When it quite literally isn’t for the overwhelming majority of the game content produced for the game.
Like it or not it’s a PVE game first and foremost now regardless of what it may have been.
If the rework is a success for PVE, you can’t label it as an overall failure, that’s just a false statement.
You could argue it’s a PVP failure.
That’s a terrible way to proceed in this specific instance.
Every design choice needs to be coherent with the new iteration.
If they would have done it as you suggest, it would never have been “right” at any time because every change they would make would have to comply with both the “old” and “new” iteration, which is impossible to do.
Beside, waiting to get it “right” with each changes would have taken months if not years because part of the data they use to figure it out is live gameplay.
You can’t have a spec on live be a “WIP” for that long that’s a terrible idea…
Literally no one reworks their champions/spec like that in the industry.
I’ve played paly for over a decade and will say it hasn’t felt this good in general since wrath and that includes PvP. You and a lot of forum whiners all make the same mistake in that youre ultimately whining about something that only applies to specific encounters but making it out to be applicable all the time. Only a few classes can remove BoF and even less amount actually use it. Really the only classes that do it consistently are sham and mage, which are hard counters to paladin and should have a method for dealing with them anyways. A class with no counter is annoying AF for everyone and your complaint is nonsense on that ground alone. It’s like rock complaining that paper beats them when of course they do… you sound like a child whining about their state when they are in an objectively great state. Top it off with the fact judgement can remove snairs and slows from those tough classes and your stance becomes even less valid. Really this boils down to a skill issue. For someone who claims to have played it for so long you lack a fundamental understanding of the game. You and many of these forum chains are complaints born of ignorance and I’m tired of seeing blizzard buckle under the pressure of these types of claims. Take the good times while they’re here ffs.
You and most of the whiners I see in forums make the same mistake in that you’re generalizing a niche problem. Fact is most classes don’t have a means of removing BoF still and of the classes that do only 2 ever use it consistently. Top it off those classes, mage and sham, are hard counters to paladin and have been for that exact reason for as long as I can remember. The fact is, this is a skill issue as you can get around these tough classes easier than ever with the judgement pvp talent that cleanses magic among other things as their slows and snairs are all magic in nature. What your asking for is akin to rock complaining they lose to paper when of course they do. Every class needs a counter and suggesting otherwise is delusional. No one is having fun when there’s no counter play. Both micro and macro counterplay is a requirement for balancing pvp and I’m tired of blizzard buckling under the pressure of these types of threads born in ignorance. Learn the game you claim to have played for so long and stay away from the “meta builds” the talent trees have too much variability for any one build to be viable all the time. Adapt and overcome. This isn’t pve where every encounter is the same and if you actually care about balance you’d agree.
I made a ret alt about week ago to try out. I geared him up with conquest boxes and easily hit 2k in solo within 20 matches. I’ve never even played ret and it was pretty faceroll. The only hard matchups are against other rets. If you’re crying about the nerfs then you just don’t understand enough about the game.
You do know this was partially a bug they are fixing, right?
Execution Sentence stores the damage you do for X seconds. That damage was getting the 200% shield buff. Then, Execution Sentence deals damage based on how much damage you did in the window. THAT damage was also getting the 200% shield buff.
They have fixed this by making Execution Sentence not use modifiers, so the only modifiers are the original damage done during the window.
This is why calling for immediate nerfs tends to lead to broken specs. If you don’t find the root cause and just react to the mob, then when you DO fix the root cause on top of the nerf, the spec ends up mediocre or worse.
We will see what the title of those posts will be come Tuesday, and you will see I do young Padawan. It’s not that Blizzard nerfed them…it’s that they had 2 months on PTR to get close enough to launch a successful re-work. A class coming out so OP after a re-work should not have happened that is what testing is for. However, it is normal for tuning to occur…this is not tuning this is butchering. And why…the scrambling to quick nerf this, and quick gut that, and quick butcher this is because they are incompetent. A successful re-work would have been close to seamless.
Everyone wants to point out the obvious…so OP…not even remotely seeing how badly this failed. You think what you see now is what Ret will be…more nerfs tomorrow…more hotfixes…more of the chicken running around with its head cut off trying to quick fix the failure.
When all is said and done, Ret will be C class begging Blizzard to give back some of what they took. I laugh at most of these responses because people are so blind and think what happens in AWC reflects this game for 99% of its players.
Successful Re-work = Seamless launch & minor tuning
Complete Failure = Daily hotfixes, continuous nerfs, gutting of abilities & 1000 forum threads that the re-worked class is OP (and they are because they failed at the re-work)