Need to stop being tuned for PVP/PVE without regards to the other. I also think all class forums should have 2 sub class forums for PVE and PVP.
My post deals directly with Ret Paladins in PVE content and PVE content only, more specifically M+. They are still a bit over tuned. Anyone with any fundamental sense of class balance will 100% agree. Now I personally don’t really care if they leave them as some super human class to dominate all damage going forward, but it has to still be pretty apparent to many people. I main a Prot War/BDK so it’s not exactly hurting me that they are over tuned. I do have a 419 alt H DH.
My friend just rolled the FOTM. Every pull with 4 or greater mobs is immediately 175k+ snap AOE dmg. I wish I was exaggerating. And it’s not a “blew my load and now I coast for a couple pulls”. It’s every pull. That’s at ilvl 406. The only time I get any semblance that I’m 17 ilvls over him is when we get to a boss, and I just burst a bit harder than him due to gear and trinkets. Now of course When I hit the mid to upper 300k range on pulls with CDs I’m cruising on pulls, but I can’t do that every pull. He even chuckles and states quite often just how gnarly stupid it is the damage he can do on demand at all times.
Just food for thought.
4 Likes
Question, from a PvPers perspective, if someone is doing big numbers in PvE M+ and somewhat getting you the times you need with that damage, if that damage doesnt effect you why are you complaining, it almost seems like a “his numbers are bugger than mine qq” type of situation.
If the goal is to compelte the dungeon on time why would you care if someone is doing more damage than you?
12 Likes
If you as a 419 havoc DH can’t outdps a 406 paladin, it’s a you problem.
Also, Havoc can burst just as hard every pack…
I won’t deny the power of ret paladins, but I feel there are classes that are just as strong as we are. We saw 0 ret paladins in the MDI, The highest ret paladin on raider.io is 100 points lower than the highest havoc DH and seems fairly average compared to the more ‘‘meta picks’’
I think the issue with retribution paladin and why it appears to be very strong is because it’s very easy to do well with, it’s not a class that’s hard to burst with and it’s very strong even in an ‘‘average’’ player’s hands.
7 Likes
first off, you are 100% right. PvP and PvE balancing need to be done completely separately. PvP DPS needs a whole lot more actual day to day balance than PvE equity imo.
from a healers perspective I don’t really care about minute PvE DPS balance, and I rarely PvP. however, in the keys I’m running (15 to 20s) I don’t really see Ret as head and shoulders above many classes in M+. I’ve seen rets top the meters throughout a whole M+ run, and I’ve seen them barely out damage the tank.
things that actually matter in M+ & raiding in importance:
don’t stand in the fire - know the mechanics
kick/CC dangerous abilities
survivability - dead players do zero damage
overall damage, way more important than burst vs. group vs. sustain vs pack.
rets are fine, take the player, not the class.
good surv hunter > FOTM
3 Likes
I play both Ret and Havoc and ret can only get that if specing for cleave/AoE which greatly hurts the ST the class can do. So the class decides which focus they want. Trash or Boss. In Raid its awesome you swap for each boss but in M+ you have to pick. In the end the overall comes out about the same and I haven’t noticed a gap between my ret or my DH. (DH technically does more by providing a consistent 5% increase in all magic damage which is the majority of the damage done in the group I run with)
5 Likes
I don’t even think instant 175k aoe is that much lol, I can easily do the same on my DH every 45 seconds.
1 Like
They really do need separate forums for PvE and PvP.
So, when people make constant complaint threads of “Ret needs more nerfs …(in PvP)” I dont have to look at them.
4 Likes
This is the correct take but mostly in pugs no one actually cares about timing the key completely. They want to time the key while also winning the damage meters, for some pugs details is more important than timing.
There’s more to this but tldr this is what I’ve seen from the typical pugging I’ve done up to 24-25s
Because balance is important in the long run really. Not only for the health of the game but also to not stigmatize other classes as “being unsuccessful” and therefore heavily looked over.
I feel anyone that describes my post as whining, has a hard time with constructive criticism.
3 Likes
No, PVP is a different game with a different mindset and game philosophy.
They should always tune for PVE first and THEN either buff or nerf what the spec does for PVP depending on overall performance.
Following the 3% nerf they are perfectly fine, they are not the top in either overall damage or damage to bosses.
And the top spec aren’t miles ahead of everyone else either so no, they don’t need to be nerfed further, not in PVE at least.
3 Likes
you haven’t played ret in prior to 10.7… ret has been historically undertuned with the excuse that we have so much utility. except that we really don’t have more utility than many other classes.
turning for 1 metric (pure dps)) is both impossible and unfun. I think any mmorpg (really any persistent online experience) benefits from diverse group comp and different classes having different strengths. There have been whole M+ seasons where rogues were king just for group stealth - allowing the group to get % on easier packs. that’s just 1 example that unfortunately isn’t in place in DL#1, but plenty of specs have had their time in the sun. nothing wrong with that as long as specs aren’t dumpster fires forever.
1 Like
It is whining though. Did you make this same post when your class was top dog by a mile? Who cares who does the most damage in pve, just buff classes that significantly under perform, DH isn’t one of them. Your goal is to kill the bosses correct? Who cares if you are the highest damage or someone else is but there’s always going to be a top dps spec…
5 Likes
It’s a qq post. I’ll do fair to good dps but we get these three ringers in our vault runs. One guy plays a DK/warrior/Ret and he smokes me by 20k on all of them ST. He pulls 80k+ consistently. We have a DH with the same gear as me. We are both average players and our dmg is very similar except aoe. He kills me there bc im terrible.
Ret seems ok, dh seems ok same with most classes. Even the bad classes in capable hands do well. Turn of the meter for a bit, work on your rotation and just play the class without worrying how inadequate you feel vs others.
1 Like
The last time I played ret seriously at all was the last season on BFA with the insane levels of mastery we got from corruptions and absolutely shredded dps. Twas the good ol’ days of two charges of word of glory that healed 3 people significantly. That was a fun season…
I think I worded that wrong. I mean they shouldn’t be tuned with “DISREGARD” for the other. Sorry. Meaning if you nerf pvp, understand you may be consequentially be nerfing PVE as well.
1 Like
Because most dps mains want to be the cool kid doing the good damage. It hurts their ego if someone is superior for any reason.
I dont like mid season rerolling and in pve if you dont start playing a class at the start of the season youre behind ALWAYS if you reroll to it mid season… unless youre in like a top 100 guild.
I wouldnt care at all if for M+ we could just valor gear vendor our BIS pieces and gear alts to bis at a decent speed.
Because it creates class bloat. I main a prot warrior, and when pallys are the only damage worth taking, then (in raid specifically) it lowers my chance of getting gear because of the sheer amount of pallys currently playing. It sounds silly to complain about someone helping a lot, but when there are 5 pallies in a group with say no cloth classes because they arent cranking as much out ( just an example) it makes gearing up incredibly difficult. Obviously people can play what they want, but they would rather play fomo instead of the other more neglected classes.
1 Like
You cant balance a game through buffing alone. That would make everyone do insane amounts of damage, and make the game too easy. Thats not a good design philosophy
I feel like every person who says “Its about balance” when in reality they use this term as a red herring to say “I want this class that I dont like to be nerfed so the people who enjoy it have to suffer.”
Forget balance for a moment, the whole point of a mythic or raid is to as cleanly and effectively clear the boss or mob packs so that you can complete the raid/time the key…ret paladin has been given the tools in this rework to help accomplish just that without having to stress the healer out keeping them alive so they dont die because an emergency button like LoH or Bubble is on CD. Asking for ret nerfs in PvE is basically shooting any mythic group that brings one in the foot, which is what has happened to ret paladin over the past 10 or more years.
3 Likes