Never saw arcane mages crying about being excluded,demo locks or the token aff lock,subt rogues,assas rogues,arms warriors etc. Alot of specs were excluded from TBC raiding. Most CLASSES rarely had more than 4-6 ina single raid and paladins were no exception. What makes your class so special that you needed more than 2 rets when the raid already had 2 holies and 1-2 prots? The literal exception to the rule was shaman, and that was purely because of heroism stacking.
You didn’t raid in TBC, don’t talk about it like you did.
The guild in which I was a member was one of the top progression guilds on the server. We were not the top guild, but we were usually at least second and had some server first kills.
We had a couple of rogues with that “look at my DPS” kind of attitude They were the kind of player that tunneled on only DPS, never used their threat dumps or interrupts and liked to link meters, but only if they were number one. If they were not number one, they always had an excuse. Maybe they died because they didn’t get heals. Maybe there was some other “reason”.
They would call out every player for what they thought was even the slightest of mistakes, but when they did something like facepull the boss early and get the raid wiped, it was “don’t worry about who wiped the raid. It’s not important.”
Well, most of the rest of the guild reached the point where they had had enough, especially the healers. The healers united and refused to heal either one of those rogues unless they changed their attitudes.
This left three options.
Option 1: The rogues could change their attitudes. That never happened.
Option 2: The raid leaders could replace each and every healer. As I said, the healers were united.
Option 3: The raid leaders could replace the rogues, even though those rogues were among the “top DPS’ers”.
Guess what happened. Those rogues never again saw a progression raid with our guild. They were replaced with players that didn’t put up the same DPS numbers that those rogues did, but they handled the mechanics, used their threat reduction if they had one, interrupted and/or cleansed and/or healed when necessary and were assets to the raid.
Those rogues eventually left the guild, but they were not picked up by any of the other top progression guilds. They had to settle for an average guild that was not even as progressed as some of those guilds slightly behind us.
Was this the norm? In our guild, yes. We wanted good people, not just players that thought they were good.
Will this be the norm in Classic? Who knows? It probably will not be for the bleeding edge progression, top 1% of guilds, but I’m sure there will be plenty of guilds in Classic that want good people, and not just players that think they are good.
Markedly not true. Your idea that orange and high purple parse players are constantly shirking mechanics just shows you have no idea what YOU are talking about. go look at all the top parses in the world. Tell me how many of them made mechanical mistakes. I even told you that my best parses basically all have near flawless mechanic execution, and that most of my parses have absolutely NO hard fails of actual deadly mechanics.
Also, most players with mindsets like you would probably have low low purples and avg would almost undoubtedly be blue.
As to why you never saw specs within a pure complaining about not getting to play their spec, I’ve covered that before. That’s because a mage still feels like a mage regardless of what spec. A rogue is still a stabby fool in every spec, etc.
When changing specs changes your role, it feels drastically different and the entire purpose of the class is altered.
Our guilds spriest and one of locks is a prime example of this. They eat non-fatal mechanics,Are incredibly sloppy about switching targets and are horribly lazy when it comes to doing anything that would lose them damage.I’ve been consistantly raiding for the better part of 14 years, I’ve seen it every single tier and whether it was world of logs,warcraftlogs or recount the story is the same. The amount of progression wipes people like this have caused over the same time period is astronomical.
They parse orange and high purple every single boss kill.
I focus on killing the boss and making up for others shortcomings. Nobody parses on a wipe,nobody gets any loot and the only thing people walk away with is a sense of failure. If I miss a use of my 3min CD cause I’m holding it for an add then so be it.
Coming from someone who actually plays more than 1 spec this is nonsense. I do what has to be done to succeed. And why are you ignoring the point that no class is entitled to more spots in a raid than any other? because it doesn’t suit your agenda? 25 spots in a TBC raid, with your thinking that would mean you have a grand sum of 5/8 of the classes available and the buffs and debuffs accordingly.
Eating non-fatal mechanics is fine IMO. I don’t do it, but the truly most efficient raid is one where you’re just shy of healers being maxxed while allowing DPS to maintain as high of damage as possible. Like a race car being driven to near the edge. Sure, it’s safer to play within margins, but that’s not as fun or as performant IMO.
Again, go look at most orange parses and tell me how many fails there are.
Also, our big mechanical wipes and failures (like someone going to the wrong side during that one boss where everyone gets green or yellow buff in legion; the one where KJ is the end boss IIRC?) are almost always due to our mid-low parsers. They don’t care about performance and just enjoy downing bosses. I’ve seen THIS time and time again. The number of wipes THOSE people have caused is astronomical. They parse blue and green every single boss kill.
No, it’s from my extensive experience in the best xpac and the most recent full xpac as well as now across multiple guilds. You do understand what anecdotal is right? And that, regardless of how much more experience you have it will ALWAYS be anecdotal? As long that’s all your arguing with, I don’t care if you have more or think your experience is better. I’ll disregard it as the illogical argument it is and stick to what I’ve personally experienced as a better guide for what I should expect until presented with truly universal hard evidence that unequivocally supports your conclusion.
You could give me the names of said players so I could stalk them and form my own conclusions, but I doubt you’d like it when I come back saying “meh, they’re fine long as they don’t fail the hard pass mechanics like orb soaking on KJ (or something).”
That’s not exactly extensive.It’s extremely limited.You have this narrow little view, over a short time period, that’s blinkered from only playing 1/3 of your class, thats driven purely off of proving yourself while limiting yourself severely by not actually doing challenging content.
get some actual experience instead of spouting heresay and regurgitating what others say because it suits your agenda.
Oh yes, 4 years of solid raiding start-to-finish of the entirety of those xpacs and constant top performance at the level I’m completing is just oh-so-meaningless. Again, put up on your main or shut up and stop bringing up things that aren’t substantiated and take your anecdote elsewhere. It is as meaningless to anyone reading this argument as mine is to you. It is a logical fallacy.
I have all those achievements aswell except I don’t act like the dogs bollocks and I have MORE experience beyond sooking cause ret doesn’t start an expac buffed. Armory me, it has dates for everything bar my pre-mop experience.
Oh so you have nothing from legion that is noteworthy except a few mythic kills on bosses well after the fact at the end when you could faceroll them with 5 people. What happened? Lost your edge? Mighty have fallen? I had far more pedigree in legion than you did.
So I’m supposed to take a washed up has-been’s advice over my own experience and viable research that proves people can be good,get orange, and be egotistical, and that the three typically go hand in hand. Yeah, no.
Like I said, you’re missing the point where anecdotal evidence and experience is flat out a logical fallacy, which means any argument made therein can be disregarded wholly. I’m well within my logical rights to stick to my own guns and feel no compulsion to change my view based on your argument as such.
heroic argus killed 2 weeks before you.
Heroic KJ killed 4 weeks before you.
You beat me to guldan by 3 weeks.
3 weeks ahead of me for xavius.
You didn’t even kill Helya rofl.
No AOTC or CE for archimonde.
3 weeks behind me for KSM.
So yeah, sit down. You pipped me at 2 raids while not even completing one. And didn’t even get KSM before me, not bad for someone who deliberately raided with people I normally wouldn’t have.
You’re making the mistake of thinking my current raid (still same one as in legion) is egotistical. There are all of 4 people in the guild who meet my criteria for elitists. Really only two (myself included). Our raid group is fine and easily clears heroic AOTC, which is all I care about for raids at this point, but most of them never even get a single purple.
As for KSM, I didn’t try to get KSM just like I haven’t tried to do anything over a 10 now. M+ is a vehicle for getting free mythic gear I shouldn’t be allowed to have. And now that 385 comes from quests and new raid is about to drop, I haven’t run a key for 3 weeks. So please, like I care. So we’re both 2-2 for timeframes (like I care about that, either, considering that’s more about the group than the individual). It’s not about stick measuring and hasn’t ever been, but you seem insistent, like I’ll somehow be “zomg wow, you’re so right! your argument somehow became valid because an appeal to authority made that anecdotal evidence valid!”
Neither did I, it just came naturally. But as to be expected I figured your excuses would just flow when you thought you didn’t have the highground to stand on.
Which sort of points out your lack of overall experience, A lack that I don’t have.
Years of a video game is more than enough to inform someone of something, period. Someone doing ONE xpac would be more than enough to inform them IMO. Know what it wouldn’t let them do, though? Make arguments without statistical evidence supporting their viewpoint as an inarguable truth.
Not if your view is stilted and lacks enough knowledge about the game as a whole. Especially when the overall design of the game has shifted immensely from something you know nothing about.
Your frankly ignorant and entitled comments about TBC raiding highlight this. You couldn’t fit more than 2 rets in a raid because you needed the other classes for what they provided. No SV hunter meant no increased damage buff, No hance shaman in the meelee/tank group meant no windfury etc etc. TBC raiding was putting together the best puzzle you could from what you had. representation had NOTHING to do with it.
All you do is spout what others have told you, which is making an argument without statistical proof. It’s a simple fact that you can clear ALL classic raids without a ret, it’s also a simple fact that you can clear them with 25 ret paladins if you wanted too.
The elitist mindset isn’t the only working one out there.
Where are you pulling these numbers from? Streamer perception? Every single guild on all the private servers? Theres going to be hundreds of thousands, potentially millions more players than the tiny microcosm that PS currently represent.
Classic wow in alot of ways is a completely new game, It represents an old game with a more modernistic approach without losing everything it had. The modernistic gogo mentality is one way to play, but without numbers of people actually playing it you’re guessing.
I LOLd so hard at this. Wanted to save this here so everyone realizes you have no clue as to all the tripe you are posting.
You JUST claimed that they knew what they were doing with itemization. You VERY obviously never played vanilla and are talking from nonsensical private server "experience ".
When a random guild recruits you here’s what you do, look elsewhere: When they say “We’re open minded and love to have fun” that means they’ll have about 10 hybrid dps in raids. You’ll have open minded, fun, viable not optimal wipes.
No one will use consumables, because that’s not fun and against their playstyle. Their playstyle also may not involve enchanting their gear.