Well I wouldn’t say that it can also be contributed to anybody who played DnD in the era WoW came out was starting to get free access to two handed and it was becoming popular. If you want to see what a real paladin looks like imagine being prot with a bit more dps and a nerfed lay on hands that you have to be next to somebody to use.
Oh and if they’re out of mana that’s normal.
I’ve only played Pathfinder, but Paladins are whiny there too about not being able to melee as well as Fighters can =P
If a Ret Paladin is whiny about their poor DPS then they do not understand the purpose of the spec. If a raid group whines that a Ret Paladin can’t pull their weight in DPS they do not understand the purpose of the spec. Ret=Utility, pure and simple. Anything more than that is a waste of increased stress levels.
What “utility” does ret provide that can’t be provided by Holy?
Focused utility. We worry about keeping people buffed, clear poison/disease, throw BoP/LoH, etc. Holy Pallies can focus on healing the DPS getting pwn’d by the Fire elementals in MC and other healing duties. Oh and Kings, which Holy Pallies may not be spec’d into.
What raid utility does a rogue bring that a mage doesn’t?
No rogue spots in raids guys!
Name one fight in any raid where a clutch BoP is needed. If you need to LoH anyone your raid has bigger problems, not to mention you will be out of mana and doing less dps than the mt.
Holy can spec into BoSanc and not miss any key holy talents. Stop grasping at straws to try and justify Retribution as a raid spot. It’s not going to happen for any guild wanting serious progression. Unless we are talking about raiding for a laugh which is totally cool i mean you could take melee mages and get them to hit bosses with their staves. Theyd do about the same dps anyway
Name one fight where you need nothing but pures?
A good player that plays a pure will only ever replace a bad player of that class in a guild. There’s already enough loot competition for pures. If the raid isn’t bothered about loot competition for pures, that means the new player is just being carried and geared so they can replace someone later.
Pures perform the best with gear thats available in raids. Giving a Ret a bis 2 hander does very little when compared to any pure dps. A Ret with hand of rag and full epics/consumes will still struggle to stay competitive with a Fury Warrior in preraid bis blues. I’ve seen it first hand.
This example is flawed because 2 handers aren’t bis for any class in pve (aside from hunters i suppose) but it illustrates my point. You aren’t going to give Warrior gear (yes Ret shares gear with Warriors up intil AQ) to a Ret. He will be last on the list to receive anything including those 2 handers if said guild has any Arms Warriors who want to dabble in pvp.
God bless you man that was a brilliant post. So positive. Was a very enjoyable read. I love your attitude.
Yes, because only serious end-game raiders matter. Glad to see you plan on hopping right into elitist jerks vs. the rest of the player base mantra. Bravo.
Any Holy Paladin worth their raid spot wont have any issues throwing out BoP, cleanse, or LoH as needed, and it’s very unlikely you wont have any Holy Paladins with at least 11 points in Prot for BoKings. It’s not like Paladins are short on talents they can freely spend where they want.
As I said before bringing a Ret Paladin is perfectly viable if people want to bring one(and I personally wont be bothered by having a few hybrid DPS in a raid), but there really isn’t a reason to actively want a Ret Paladin. Any utility they have is brought by the numerous Holy Paladins you should already have, and their DPS is mediocre at best even if it can pass any DPS check in raids.
Agreed, and this is something people need to accept. Just because they don’t see the need for a Ret, either over a Holy Paladin or a Warrior/Rogue, doesn’t mean that you can’t just bring one anyways. A good Ret will do decently (passing DPS checks, offering some off heals/other active utility) and that’s all they need to do to “earn a spot”. You bring a Ret because they’ve been in your guild since Dead Mines, or at least SM, they are competent, and they are likable. You will never go out and recruit one, but that doesn’t mean the ones you have aren’t viable to bring to raids.
Except when it comes time to distribute loot.
You aren’t going to come anywhere close on the meters to pures, so you aren’t going to be getting any of the drops. Remember, you share loot with Warriors prior to AQ. T1/2 are horrible for Ret dps, so anyone can take those (Holy doesn’t even want T2 for pure healing). But any dps plate? It’s going to the Furies who are stacked 5+ because they are beast dps. Any 2 handers go to Hunters first, then Warriors who actively pvp, then you. You are last on the list for any and every piece of loot.
So if playing a subpar spec means that much to you, just know that by the time you get some decent gear, the next tier of raiding will be out and likely on progression for most guilds.
It sounds like the viability of the spec depends a lot on the effort that you put in to it both before raid to prepare with consumables, world buffs, and knowledge. And your performance in raids.
You effort is rarely rewarded. The amount of time/gold required to just sit below pures in preraid blues while you are decked in epics is monumental, meanwhile if you put the same effort in to playing a pure, guilds practically throw loot at you and you sit on the top of the mountain.
Playing a hybrid and not healing/supporting is such a waste of space. Specs that are so incredibly strong yet people insist on playing them in this way that’s so counter intuitive. Like you want to be Ret, yet you have no gap closer, no target slow, no sustained damage, no way to regen your resource bar outside of chugging mana pots, no on demand damage, limited mana pool thanks to poor itemization meaning even less dps and little to no room for “utility” that everyone loves to mention, the list goes on.
By all means if it really means that much to you, go right ahead. I’m all for people championing specs that, lets be honest, are broken on a mechanical and fundamental level when compared to more recent iterations of the game. Just know exactly what you’re getting into, what you’re up against on a numerical level that’s virtually embedded in the coding of the game, and stop being led by disingenuous people who claim any guild will take you “if you put in effort”. That’s not how the game works, it wasn’t back then and it won’t be now. Be prepared
You tell me then, what’s that Fury Warrior who’s pulling numbers above the guilds Ret going to do when he’s passed over for loot because the Pally is the guilds token Ret and just a really swell guy who puts in the effort? You think he’s gonna stick around? I know I wouldn’t, I put in the time and effort, did better than a hybrid, and I’m not getting upgrades which will further help me and my guild clear content faster?
This is a hypothetical and doesn’t happen, and the reason why it doesn’t happen is because people don’t play hybrids in raids, because they are always passed up on loot. A pure is always more deserving of the same loot, even if he doesn’t put in as much effort, because he does more dps and guilds see this as clearing content faster. That’s the reality of the game. You take steps as a raid leader to minimize variables that hinder your entire raids progress, which also means examining your groups and compositions. A hybrid is always going to be the weakest link in a raid, and after all he’s been given the privileged of coming along to a raid in his broken spec, so that’s enough. You can bet he won’t have any kind of loot priority whatsoever.
There’s 39 other people to think of, and all 39 I can guarantee you don’t want to be in a raid they’ve done many times over for much longer than they need to, even if it means appeasing some hybrid who’s well just a really neat guy who comes prepared every raid or whatever.
Any raid that gives a good two-hander to a Warrior to PvP with over the Ret Paladin who actually uses it to DPS in raids is being stupid about loot.
Especially if they’re going to turn around and refuse to give you armour because “The Warrior having it benefits the raid more”.
It’s a moot point anyway because raids don’t take Rets so this hypothetical never rarely if ever happens.