The horde demands your buffs!
Those people are better off playing a single player game and not causing the raid leader’s, tank’s, and healer’s blood pressure to rise just so they can spam chat with a damage meter report.
2 Likes
Sorry you can have the reject shamans.
So long as they’re not spamming meters in chat every pull, there’s still a place in Vanilla WoW for people who want to do a lot of damage.
It’s just… not with the Paladin class.
Esfand probably has his druids innervate himself.
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What about healing meters?
Anybody with sense knows that the healing meters don’t mean a ton =P
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Don’t say that it’s not true!
Agreed. When they tunnel and only focus on DPS/meters and have no awareness of anything else, that’s the problem though.
They fit just fine on live, where you can select one role only and that’s all you do. In vanilla, that just doesn’t work. You need to utilize your kit rather than a select few abilities.
What IF that raid didn’t support the ret paladin with gear? What IF the raid says screw all and doesn’t allow JoW or JotC? Now are you seeing where the extremely low numbers come from? Ya, in gimmick fights like vael where the no cooldown execute wins out the number difference is staggering, but with equal chance in gear and with judgements on the boss it can be 500 vs 700
I was going to respond to this one, but…
You say it’s mandatory… I really feel for you if you then. Poor droods being the most worthless class of all WoW. Hey, maybe no one should play druid because they are even worse than second class citizens: third class. Why play for fun with friends if the world is telling you to just quit having fun. Elitism is there to down trod peoples enjoyment so that the elitists can profit off of your misery. It’s a game, one doesn’t have to worry about getting beaten or stabbed if they go against the norm.
So I will say there is a point to bringing a ret, not being a douche and realizing they aren’t the ones holding you back because of the class itself.
Stop confusing viable and optimal.
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Ret is neither viable nor optimal. You may all return to your silly semantics arguments on the internet now.
It’s like, it’s trying to communicate with us…
no,
low personal dps is not a problem;
low personal impact is the problem;
shadow priest do lower dps than additional warlock, and he is still good because of how he boosts the others;
you can also look at tbc alliance ret, which dps was significantly lower than horde ret dps,
but he was still viable, mostly because of his unique +crit debuff;
you’re confusing correlation with causation;
warriors just have much better scaling from gear, that is why (sometimes) they are on high prio for some items (in some guilds); and that depends on guild loot model;
but let it be considered to be near the same gear lvl in every such discussion;
i never heard or say about JoW restriction;
but JotC is usually restricted even with 16 debuff slots;
there is just no place for JotC;
here i see a lot of posts about how dps meters are bad and how you should benefit your raid in other ways;
and now you say ret should apply JotC for his personal meter only and screw the whole raid’s dps by removing valuable debuff ;
and about Vael fight… ret paladin have infinite mana and could use HoW a lot, but it does not help him
sorry, that is how it will be;
i would like to see in raid restors and ferals and even boomks;
and ret paladins using JotC and doing some reasonable dps(or another kind of contribution as party/raid unique buffs); and not being a meme spec alongside with “after-1.9-prot”;
and elems to be a viable dps option for caster group, and enhs for melee group;
but it seems that it will not happens;
prepare to be kicked from raids for having dot effect on wep;
i hate debuff restrictions, but this is how it will be;
I can tell you the same thing.
where is your line between not optimal and not viable ?
is doing 30% of warrior’s dps is still not optimal but viable? 10% ? 0% ?
1 Like
Sure, but you can also give the Ret Nightfall and he can do similar. Ret isn’t as reliant on debuffs as Shadow is, which is the major downfall - not only do they do low personal DPS and run OOM easily, they also take up multiple debuff slots.
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Viable means able to perform the job. Seeing as even the tightest enrage timer in the game can be beaten with purely hybrids dpsing, hybrids are viable.
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so you could bring to raid any “imaginary” spec without damage, healing or any useful abilities at all ;
and tell that “it is a viable spec” just because the whole raid still able to do the job, disregard of negligible(or even negative) impact of this garbadge “imaginary” spec;
sorry, i cant agree on it;
yes yes, tightest enrage timer, stationary undead target, tryharding ret paladin with sulfuras 550 dps;
there is a lot of things to smash this idyll even without enrage timer
Given they are contributing nothing at that point, no. Ret is not pure damage - it is a hybrid - it provides utility. A Warrior or Rogue has virtually no utility outside of traps or emergency tanking (which is probably not going to be as common as it was in vanilla), they just bring damage. But you don’t need to have absolute top tier damage to clear the raids, they weren’t designed with that in mind. There is no Mythic difficulty with tight rage timers. Every fight has fairly rudimentary mechanics and can be done without trying to min/max everything.
Why bring a Nightfall Hunter (or Retadin)? They do low personal DPS, so what’s the point? They increase raid DPS. They bring utility. It’s a concept that is dead on live but is very important in vanilla.
Warm bodies are far, far more important than optimizing specs.
4 Likes
do you think warriors dont have utility?
lets not to mention cc and mobility;
hm, ok warriors dont have it,
except party hp buff
and party AP buff
and armor debuff
and ap debuff
and extremal tanking option
etc.
oh and they also could have a good nightfall uptime with hamstring spam
im really tired to hear “but if other are terrible” or “if you have to choose from good ret and bad rogue” kind of arguments;
such arguments only proves poor hybrid dps position;
yes there is no Mythic difficulty,
but you can see difficulty rise MC->BWL->AQ40->NAXX
there is a significant difficulty rise at BWL,
and AQ40 could be a challenging even for experienced pve oriented groups
What? Warriors didn’t have Commanding Shout in vanilla? Or am I just not remembering an ability they had?
They gave melee AP, which was useful, but so did Rets.
Sunder Armour would be applied and maintained by the tank, it causes too much threat.
Demoralizing Shout can be kept up by the tank.
External tanking option was already mentioned.
Meanwhile Rets bring…
Kings, Might, and Wisdom
BoP, Freedom, and Threat reduction
Cleanse and off-heals
So yeah. Having Ret isn’t bad if there’s only a few of them. As has been said repeatedly, vanilla was not designed with min/max damage in mind. And giving it to a Warrior is a waste - they do much lower damage.