dude, I WROTE BLIZZARD AND ASKED THEM
I even went so far as to file GM tickets on battle.net but wasn’t able to get an answer:
https://cloud.githubusercontent.com/assets/4651925/3946600/59247fee-2676-11e4-9fa8-f1868709971e.jpg
it’s not like I didn’t try to get an answer straight from the source…
Of course a CS rep doesn’t know. They’re customer service, not the people who dig into old server code and database backups.
I originally asked a while ago in this thread where the proc rate of Nightfall comes from and you couldn’t provide an answer.
Luuni finally did so yes, 2 PPM is a decent place to start. It’s not irrefutable but it’s still Vanilla data.
I’m just pointing out some hypocrisy of yours here: You’re willing to accept a few wayward comments from back in the day because they agree with the outcome you want, but you refuse to accept video evidence because it doesn’t.
I’m sure if I put in a ticket about the proc rate of Nightfall in Vanilla I would get a “I’m sorry but I don’t know the answer” as well.
try walking in my shoes and the sheer number of haters and trolls who have tried to break down everything that I tried to FIX on private servers
do you have any idea just how many people crapped on me for saying that you could get reck charges from using /sit or X when I posted this video?
How to be a Gankadin
Published on Aug 8, 2006
cuz they used this as their evidence - http://blue.cardplace.com/cache/wow-paladin/1069149.htm
> Can I sit down to force a crit and gain a charge?
> Charges will not generate off auto attacks or npc attacks by trying to sit down and force a crit. However, ability crits from physical abilities such as Sinister Strike, Hamstring, Auto-shot, Aimed shot, etc will generate a charge if you’re sitting.
never mind the fact that the actual guy who wrote that guide lo and behold said this last summer on these very classic forums:
Baconn<Reverends of Swagger>120 Human Paladin22760315 posts
Got linked over to this post from I assume Theloras, and I can shed a little light on Reckoning. Some of the info from my 14 year old guide was a little out-of-date: IIRC when the sticky dropped I stopped updating the guide.
Normally if you’re sitting down you would not get Reckoning charges from auto-attacks. However, you could gain charges from random NPCs by constantly sitting and standing up due to server lag: mob would try to attack you as your were sitting, so it’d be a forced crit. However, if you stood up just as you were getting hit, the server would see you as if you were standing and get a Reckoning charge.
or all the haters who tried to get HOLY RESISTANCE actually exist on private servers…
Blazefury Medallion
Binds when picked up
Neck
+13 Agility
+14 Stamina
+12 Fire Resistance
Requires Level 60
Equip: Adds 2 fire damage to your melee attacks.
By Siralex on 02/04/2008 (Patch 2.3.3)
I have actually tested this necklace while on a PTR and noticed the fire damage increases by about 50% of your spell damage. I personally was getting 646 regular hits with it and 969 crits (untrinketed). This could possibly be a great item for casters in Arenas.
Storm Gauntlets
Binds when equipped
Hands Mail
218 Armor
+7 Intellect
+10 Fire Resistance
Durability 40 / 40
Requires Level 54
Equip: [Adds 3 Lightning damage to your melee attacks.]
Equip: [Increases damage done by Nature spells and effects by up to 21.]
By QFred on 09/10/2012 (Patch 3.1.3)
Back in the days, the damage from this proc was affected by crit chance and spell power. So it would do more than 3 damage on each attack, often. Plus, it had a quite awesome lightning sound and visual effect.
Fiery Plate Gauntlets
Binds when equipped
Hands Plate
379 Armor
+10 Fire Resistance
Durability 45 / 45
Requires Level 53
Equip: [Adds 4 fire damage to your weapon attack.]
By sasuci on 02/01/2010 (Patch 3.1.3)
The SP affect the 4dmg something around 30-50% of ur SP. My holy pala have them and are AWESOME!
so once again - irregardless of what Nightfall’s actual PPM proc rate ends up being once Classic launches…
here is the difference in personal DPS by a Melee Hunter vs a Retribution Paladin on Patchwerk:
21 Theoloras (107160)
449.9/s 2.7%
26 Bullmax (64839)
272.2/s 1.6%
https://legacyplayers.com/Raids/Viewer/?id=15544&exp=0&upl=21338
18 Theoloras (139204)
453.8/s 3.5%
23 Bullmax (60991)
198.8/s 1.5%
https://legacyplayers.com/Raids/Viewer/?id=13725&exp=0&upl=18288
A Melee Hunter ends up doing 1/3 to 1/2 DPS of what a Retribution Paladin can do.
Actually this is less reliable because your sample size is 1 Hunter and 1 Paladin, which is laughable.
Though on the topic of Nightfall I did some quick math assuming a 2 PPM(since we now have something suggesting that’s a decent number =P):
In a 10 minute span you’ll swing Nightfall 171 times. The proc rate of Nightfall has to be ~11.7% to make 171 hits in 10 minutes proc 20 times, or 2 PPM.
Paladins using SoR get another 171 chances, but it always comes at the same time you white hit.
That means Paladins get 40 total procs, and of this:
With 8 partial procs, 2 wasted procs, and 30 full procs a Paladin over 10 minutes should have an up time on average of 29.67%.
For Hunters we’ll assume that Wing Clip can be used once every 2 seconds. This accounts for lag/human reaction time on top of the GCD.
That means they get 300 Wing Clips in 10 minutes. On top of the normal 20 procs from white hits, they get another 35 from Wing Clip.
Any given proc will be followed up by 2 additional Wing Clips for a 22% chance for a partial proc. These will be split between 2 second and 4 seconds depending on which Wing Clip procced.
This means 6 highly wasted procs(2 second duration), 6 partially wasted(4 seconds), and 43 full procs.
That’s an up time of 41.83%.
Granted certain buffs may shift those number around a bit but that’ll be the baseline of what each class should be averaging given calculated 2 PPM.
dude, get over yourself -those two raid parses were from a LIVE server - but we tested every single class/spec who could swing Nightfall on a test server against target dummies for extended periods multiple times
PS you forgot JUDGEMENT of Righteousness being able to trigger procs…
Yeah, you could, by mashing X and fooling the server into thinking you weren’t sitting by the time you were getting hit by the forced crit. The only way to get reck stacks off NPCs was by exploiting. We aren’t playing on 2004 hardware for Classic, no reason for that exploit to happen in Classic.
Did you even read the guy’s response that you posted yourself?
Not an exploit friend - Seal Twisting used the same server lag and Blizzard said it was “creative use of Game Mechanics”
Or are you calling every single Blood Elf Retribution Paladin who played during TBC bug abusers?
PS a Poster even said in the ORIGINAL vanilla forum post that it was possible:
Hwangstar
Level 60 Human Paladin
Azshara
13. Re: Guide to Reckoning V2 (Current 1.10) | 2:58:34 AM PDT
"sitting down DOES store a charge for reckoning from npc auto attacks
what you have to do is stand up right as they are about to connect and you will store a charge.
i used to run around orgrimmar and get charges off creeps and then unload on unwary clothie."
https://wayback.archive.org/web/20060719084043/http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com:80/thread.aspx?fn=wow-paladin&t=1069149&p=1&tmp=1#post1069149
Get over what? Challenging that your math may not be perfect?
It sounds like you need to get over yourself. I’m not some hater from a private server who wants to accuse you of stuff, but neither will I accept things from private servers if there isn’t a good basis for doing so.
If we include JoR then the uptime for Paladins goes to 36%. It’s worth noting that Hunters can push their number higher too by being more reactive with Wing Clip. Assuming a 1.5s GCD + 0.5 second reaction/lag is VERY generous in favour of Paladins in 2019.
Even with haste enchants, there’s nothing there to claim that “an Alliance Hunter is going to have an upkeep with Nightfall somewhere around or slightly below Retribution Paladin.”
your assumption that we would base our end results on only one or two tests…
our results over multiple tests show the following results ON AVERAGE:
THIS IS ALL STATED IN THE THREAD along with screenshots and breakdowns for gear, spec and overall test setup - because unlike you we actually ran the tests.
PS when the hell have I ever stated “an Alliance Hunter is going to have an upkeep with Nightfall somewhere around or slightly below Retribution Paladin”
Their PERSONAL DPS will be much lower than a Ret Paladin.
I work with what is given to me rather than assuming that the person is either competent or not at what they’re trying to do.
To be blunt I imagine even if I ran tests you’d dismiss it anyway, because you seem offended by the mere suggestion that you might have done something wrong. Every time I’ve come to you with evidence that you might not have been right about something, you find some excuse to dismiss it.
I’m not against you being right but I am against not verifying that, and am all for questioning if private servers that are half guesswork to begin with actually got things right too.
I literally copy pasted that from the you linked me to about Nightfall tests. I’m pointing out that there’s nothing to back up Keftenk’s claim of that.
This is like the 10th time I’ve reposted the Nightfall thread in this thread where all of our evidence and testing is laid out for all to see…
Keftenk may have said that at the very beginning of our testing parses, but I never did - in the future you would be well to post quotes to the appropriate person before laying accusations out.
To be clear, this is the full paragraph of what he wrote (again at the VERY BEGINNING of our test efforts):
“I am going to go out on a limb here and say that an Alliance Hunter is going to have an upkeep with Nightfall somewhere around or slightly below Retribution Paladin. They should realistically probably be pretty close. Again, Haste is the key here. Then abilities afterwards, which Seal of Righteousness from what I can tell is the most reliable in applying NF.” - Keftenk
TLDR - he is making a PREDICTION - not final test results.
Never mind the fact that he goes on to say this as well regarding his first round of test using a Ret Paladin with SoR/JoR:
Keftenk - Today at 2:34 PM
so, i actually just did a sor/jor 5-minute test. fairly good numbers
Keftenk - Today at 2:34 PM
68.33% upkeep
Keftenk - Today at 2:35 PM
but do note…this was a 5minute test
it could be skewed
Keftenk - Today at 2:35 PM
but i think it warrants an hr test
seeing a number like that
But I digress, as I think you are confusing total number of procs with EFFECTIVE DEBUFF UPTIME.
We do not count the sheer number of procs that any class/spec can achieve but rather their ability to maintain effective uptime for the debuff.
These are the two macros you need in order to do so (on top of the Super Macro addon):
Macro 1
/in 1+ /script for i=1,16 do local texture = UnitDebuff(“target”,i); if texture and texture == “Interface\Icons\Spell_Holy_ElunesGrace” then NfCount = NfCount + 1; DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage(NfCount) end end
Macro 2
/script SM_INFRAME:Hide(); NfCount = 0
Use Macro 2 first to clear your chat frame, then use Macro 1 - at the end of the boss fight combat press Macro 2 again to stop counting then refresh your UI to clear it.
for example
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/484066218911727618/484066527721684992/double_nightfall.jpg
see the count in the chat window
the macro checks every second
to see if spell vulnerability is on the target
it yes, it adds +1 to the count
if no, it doesn’t
so in that PW example
i was swinging nightfall using SoR/JoR along with a melee hunter
and combined we got 150 seconds of total debuff uptime
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/484066218911727618/484066529030438912/patchwerk_nightfall_uptime_two.jpg
that was me solo nightfall swinging
and got 89 seconds of total debuff uptime
make sense?
It is not my first intent to get into a fight with you or anyone else - but if people misquote me, or say that I skew test results or worse yet go and spew outright lies, then of course I am going to defend myself.
But if you want to have a calm and rationale discussion then I am all ears - all I ask is that you look at ALL of the data before making any rash/final thoughts about our results as they are legit.
Yes, it is selfish to require or want someone to sacrifice for others. It’s the definition of it. Just being a part of a collective means that you take responsibility equally for any action. You might be thinking of altruism which is not the same thing.
What does a melee hunter bring besides maybe 30% more uptime than a paladin? Practically nothing. A paladin brings a lot of utility.
You seem confused no one is asking the ret to respec… people just aren’t going to bring the selfish clown who specs ret and wants others to carry dead weight because he wanted to be a snowflake.
Your mental gymnastics to justify one dude holding 39 other people back and then call the 39 other people out for being the selfish ones is absurd to the maximum degree.
[citation needed]
Seal twisting != Spam sitting either. You can link as many posts as you want that say that they exploited the server lag back then, it doesn’t mean that it should be in Classic now. You just want the game to have the same bugs as it had back then so that it benefits your class LUL.
Imagine doing mental gymnastics to the point that you call gimping your raid “altruism”. Then again, I guess it is altruism to bring along a useless ret paladin that wouldn’t see content otherwise since they can’t be bothered to heal.
The one thing you’ll never find a shortage of is bad Rets, and entitled Warrior DPS who use guilds as stepping stones to acquire gear.
I think should you want a truly optimal raid, you probably don’t need a Ret. But those truly optimal raids are rife with drama, lots of flexing over logs and parses, and lots of turnover.
Method and some historically good guilds in the retail scene have such a stranglehold on talent, and their players are so skilled, that many have numerous alts, and they have farm guilds and trial guilds.
I’m Vanilla WoW, just the sheer amount of time it takes to level makes this a heck of a task. Many of the top tier guilds on private servers have players with alts, but at most, 1 or 2. And funny as it is, these alts are specifically for everything that is not optimal. Meme specs, testing Druid tanks, a random Elemental Shaman, etc.
Initially during progression, and with your goal being server first, you won’t see many Rets. But they’ll be there shortly after content is on farm and as more gear and content is released. And by the time AQ40 is out, you’ll see far more due to their tier set there giving them a noticeable power spike.
The whole point I’m driving at though, is that these Rets are lifers. They know the struggle they bring to a raid that has DPS issues. But they are family. They tryhard and farm consumes and legitimately play with passion. They will heal when need be and enjoy the luxury of getting to DPS at times. They will use Nightfall and will farm consumes and keep the raid happy.
A lot of Warrior DPS are so primadonna, they are arguably soulless. Trading everything they can for more gear to parse higher. Some cutthroat mentality is good, but with it comes an ego that you don’t find on a Ret. People may argue that it is selfish for a player to go Ret, but in my subjective opinion, I’ve seen much more selfish play from incredible Warrior DPS who feel shafted over getting Onslaught Girdle 3rd or 4th, and walk away with a bunch of T2 and other stuff.
Due to the small number of Rets raiding, I have yet to see any of them walk away, because they understand where they are on the totem pole and table.
I remember when I was on Nost with Theo and Smiter and both told me, “good luck getting Onslaught Girdle or Flameguard Gauntlets” and they were right. I waited and waited and as different Warriors joined, I continued to wait. I never got it. Nost got shut down and then our characters had new life breathed into them on Elysium and I kept going. And I kept waiting. But when we got to Naxx and all 14 of the Warriors we had played with had Onslaught Girdle, Girdle of the Mentor dropped, and every single one of them was happy for me to take it first.
It never “gimped” the raid. I had funneled over 10,000g through the hands of raiders due to Devilsaur Mafia farming, and my Armor smithing generating me tons of gold from crafting Lionheart Helms. I used to hand them out to new Warriors and Warrior alts who attained a core raiding spot.
Everyone is right that Ret DPS = not Warrior DPS. But people sleep on Warrior DPS = bigtime drama and constant turnover. There is a reason guilds that run AQ40 in 45 minutes on private servers constantly recruit Fury Warriors over everything else. Their DPS is so good that gear becomes a problem. And people, especially in this day and age, are far more entitled than they used to be.
When and if Classic launches well, Luuni said it best; the private server all stars will be scattered to the wind, and you’ll have smaller servers with more working class NA people who can’t afford to spend the rigorous amount of time it takes to farm for end-game raiding. This is where you will see Rets take up slots.
Warriors require an absurd amount of gearing. Lionheart Helm, Edgemasters, Devilsaur Set, Battlechaser Greaves; that is at minimum going to cost you 1000g or so just for a baseline. Prot is even worse. Stockade Pauldrons, Medallion of Grand Marshal Morris, Stonegrip Gauntlets, Alcor’s Sunrazor, Myrmidon Signet. 500g. 500g. 250g. 1000g. 250g.
People will have Google and a ton of knowledge available and the cost of getting to play Fury but being forced to tank, and spending 5,000g to do all that is going to burn out Warriors. When they don’t get their item and are burned out? We haven’t even touched enchants, epic mounts, or consumables.
Rets will be taking some of these spots. You just have to understand it.
Do you have a guild in mind or a community link?
Once we get a solid release date I’ll start looking/forming properly. Just putting some non-solid tentacles out now.