I recently came back after a few years hiatus, around the time we got our rework. I’m no expert so I listen to my other fellow ret paladins concerning our class. And in the past, it’s been mentioned that we scale badly because we now rely on Verse since our Mastery was seriously nerfed.
Someone in the Warrior section mentioned about bad scaling and I told them “hello, ret paladin here” concerning bad scaling (because I trust my more experienced fellow ret paladins on this matter). They asked me to explain that stance and honestly, it was a legit question I couldn’t answer.
So, can one of you fine gentlemen (or gentle lady) break it down to me on why rets supposedly scale badly because of our relying on the Verse stat? Or was the information I gathered about ret scaling badly false?
Any and all answers/explanations will be greatly appreciated.
Basically, some abilities we have do not interact or don’t get a bonus from certain stats.
Easy example:
Wake of Ashe
WoA doesn’t scale with haste. It’s a 30sec CD builder, doesn’t matter for it if you got 0% or 40%, by design it doesn’t interact with it.
Some other examples:
Templar strike has a fixed .5 CD and guaranteed crit on second hit so haste has no value for it and crit has diminished value
HoW has guaranteed crit, so crit has no value since there is no component to increase crit damage going along with it.
The capstone Searing light has no direct interaction with haste (a 5% proc chance with a 15 CD )
We have enough of those type of interaction to justify getting versatility since this will just simply bumb the damage of everything regardless of what it does.
The things with mastery is that they devalued the amount of % it gave per point since it would now apply on all our abilities (because they made them all either Radiant/holy/holystrike).
But they devalued it soo much that Vers became essentially better because both now give similar rating but vers affect ALL damage (trinket and other gear quirk) compared to Mastery only holy.
Fair enough and I get this. But it was previously mentioned that BECAUSE of Verse, we scale badly.
Are other ret paladins saying that we scale badly BECAUSE of the Verse stat, or because our Mastery was nerfed into the ground, thus not scaling as we previously did, thus default to relying on the Verse stat?
Hope I asked that question clearly. As always, appreciate your (and others) input, Benmarch.
scaling is a crutch, fundamentally nothing changed realistically enough to warrent all the blame on verrse as a stat.
the spec itself loves all 4 stats somewhat equally with our new tier favoring mastery by a decent amount where sims want you to have a decent amount of it anyways (a role that was picked up by beacon in aberrus which gave you all the mastery you wanted as a ret paladin)
haste is our main stat while crit and verse are somewhat even
people often blame vers or scailing as a boogieman when the issue is the class design itself. we cant be buffed normally because our talent design seperates our damage in st and aoe thus make us unable to hybrid. the skill ceiling of lack there off makes it very hard to buff us as well, in lower tier ret paladin is very very very strong so you run the risk of making the casual low tier base oppressively strong if you buff ret in the highend (which we are very very very low in) its not a easy fix without substantial talent tree fixes and a introduction of a skill ceiling
mastery had to be nerfed because our entire kit is holy now, i still feel it was overnerfed but tier is showing us that it probably wasnt over nerfed
Well vers point per % isn’t great since it’s meant as both a defensive and offensive stat meant for PVP.
So at baseline, it’s not something that has inherently great scaling because of its dual purpose.
You don’t get hit in PVE, your tank does. It’s nice to have a buffer on targeted spell to your face but that’s why we have defensives.
We could say that it’s the “we scale badly because of verse” part and that would be partly true except it’s an intellectual shortcut for your second suggestion.
To be specific we should say “we scale badly because verse ends up being our best stat”.
And even that is a statement that should be nuanced.
Use that SoV for damage!
Personnaly, I think a talent that makes something crit 100% should come with a further modifier letting your crit stat influence the crit damage in some capacity.
Haste is our main stat IF one is running CSAA. I myself love the feel of Templar Strikes.
Again, interesting take. Thanks for the input.
Really? I always thought it was inherently great because of its dual purpose.
But if you say “vers point per % isn’t great since it’s meant as both a defensive and offensive stat meant for PVP,” I’ll take your word for it since I’m no mathematician.
Okay.
Yeah, and have the non ret players hate us even more. There are people who actually believe we should not have even gotten the measly 3% we recently received.
idk whos giving you this info but i believe you’ll find more useful info in hammer of wrath discord than any other spot. people tend to embelish the issues of ret and label it on things that arnt the issues. yes our tier favors mastery and its very common to see some gem enchanting and gear with mastery once you get 4pc
keep in mind that before rework ret still loved all 4 stats
No, vers/haste/crit definitely still better stats, Mastery is just getting better because everything else hitting DR.
Rets scaling has never been that great to my knowledge and with vers being our best secondary it puts us in an even worse place, DR hits vers the hardest.
op, my buddy just scale his damage with bis trinket which is completely outside the ret mechanic. vers/mastery - crit 32+. if u want to experiment go full haste and remove CS, and just spam FV.
what if u just want to hit very hard while not running out any buttons to press and still maintains 3 hp. did it in s1 with 40% chance to crit 8% haste, 50%+ mastery, 10-15% vers.
use them only for reference, not an exact copy since you don’t know if they play the same as you do, they probably have different timing(haste capping at certain point) or have augmentor and buffer in their team.
the best advice u can get is to learn how to theory craft urself and put it into test, since u have time to post here, spend that time to gather gear and even gather the gear that u think is worst. build around your talent not with someone talent, and learn how to make it stronger.
low crit > high haste > high mastery / verse
haste rely on cascading effects, the more u throw the more chances you will crit and if ur skill have extra effects like + damage from every hit + dots it will confiscate for low crit.
high crit > high mastery or vers > low haste
you rely on guaranteed heavy strike while keeping urself busy every moment(means u have something to press like having 2 stacks of judgment or blade of justice and 2 hammer of wrath + other cd to offset the downtime) ← that one big hit can count as 2-3 skills from “high haste” build.
u are at end game now, and as a paladin u’ll probably counted on popping utilities and be an off-heal at certain parts of the fight to be useful, not just damage dealer. warriors they can’t do those, they can only extended ur life for few sec by intervening and off-tanking and this is the min max part where u will be attempting mythic raid.
the problem is u are stuck in this game and u lacked experience in exploring other builds, poe will teach u how to play around with certain abilities even how stupid the build is, bdo will teach u how to time ur abilities properly and without looking at your action bars, dark souls and neoh will probably teach you how to pay more attention to when to use certain abilities and sacrificing not to use it, and to anticipate your target.
don’t clutter your screen with addons or rely heavily on it
sims are fraud and not always updated. u are social engineered to follow them to so u can easily be controlled and funneled to certain groups of sheeples.
That’s some good advice. Thank you @Puding. I took a long hiatus at the beginning of BfA. Always played straight up dps (rogue, mage, hunter) came back and wanted to try something different.
Thank you for reminding me that Ret Paladin is a hybrid class with abilities that no other dps has and that every player in WoW plays each class and spec differently. Glad this game isn’t just a one-size fits all game.
I like how you think but this talent is bad.
The CD on it is not concurrent, it’s staggered and you can’t get resets on it.
You don’t get “2 judgements” you get 1 more over a fight since we ideally cast it on CD.
Say you hit judgement twice in a row with the talent, you don’t get 2 judgement back 5 seconds later, you get 1 and then the other one another 5 sec later.
The sim is a tool. What the sims are showing you is theoretical yes but it doesn’t make you a sheep for using it. There is nothing wrong with using Sim especially for a new player. Checking your gear to optimize your DPS is perfectly acceptable, they could be missing out on a good chunk of performance.
For a new or newer player in particular it’s a great tool. What about general guides on Ice Veins or WoW head? Is a new player a sheep for doing a bit of research for a general guide?
)
