Ret needs some serious tuning?

Classes Paladin
1

Nerubar to Undermine feels like a night and day difference. I mean it geniunely feels like we’re not scaling at all with the new upgrades and tier compared to all these other classes.

Looking at Warcraft logs we’re bordering bottom 5 in damage (this isnt including aug since that spec is deliberately being killed)

im not asking us to be top DPS,but considering we’re one of the few classes that only has 1 DPS spec I think we should consistently be at least middle of the pack. Am I just asking for to much here or do others feel the same way?

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2

I’m definitely noticing myself fall behind as more people in my raid are acquiring gear upgrades and their tier set. I just got my 4-piece and BiS myth-track trinket from my vault and I do not notice myself scaling as well as I hoped.

I certainly think it is still fun to play ret, especially with the procs of essentially “infinite” holy power as part of the tier set, but I worry that because we are now designed to be constantly spamming spenders, that we are being tuned down accordingly.

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Yes i have definitely noticed it. Used to be in the top 5 in raids/ top of mythics etc, now falling way behind other classes. Something doesn’t feel right :frowning:

4

Our single target ability has fallen off significantly, and is proven in raids logs the last few weeks.

Most of our talent options almost exclusively add cleave/aoe improvements with only a select few that affect single target. We’re in desperate need of a tuning pass and/or a talent rework as it is affecting all forms of content.

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5

I wish every single ret “main” here had the same realization.

We’ve had a spec tree rework, a class tree rework and multiple talent changes you are telling me after all of that the spec is still in the gutter in terms of scalin? Whoa!1!!

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6

I tried the 4-set for the first time yesterday.

Not a fan.

I remember in SL and before, getting a DP proc felt like a breath of fresh air and it felt impactful.

This tier is an abomination, it doesn’t work with a design that shifted soo much of the damage outside the spenders (builders and hero spec).

It feels made to support the new interaction of Divine Hammer, not as a mean to make spender more meaningful.

We’ve been in this movie before, talents that do either ST or AoE were niching us completely in either.

DF AoE build was 20% behind ST build in single target, vice versa for ST build in AoE.
Improvements were made.

We have a build with only ST talent, it doesn’t matter that some of them have incidental cleave, that’s good in fact.

Beside none of the cleave/aoe only talent are needed to get anywhere in the tree.

Tuning, sure.

Talent Rework?
No, read the room.
Ret was reworked in DF, Paladin tree was reworked in TWW S1.
Arguably Prot Paladin should get a rework if paladin gets something else.

I’ll be first to admit, I thought those issues were a thing of the past with the removal of 100% crit talents, mastery change that scales more, talents like Burn to Ashes and Art of War.

But it seems that the focus they put on abilities/effect that don’t have obvious scaling came to bite us back in the bum.

Wake itself doesn’t scale with haste.
HoL partially does through Light deliverance and Empyrean Hammers.
Searing Light doesn’t scale with haste since it has an ICD
Divine Arbiter doesn’t scale with crit (can’t crit)

Admittedly putting a haste scaling on Wake is a bit tricky, they did it before with the SL tier set that made AoW proc a reset of Wake instead of BoJ and afterward as a talent choice with Radian Glory as the same effect.

But adjusting Searing Light and Divine Arbiter seems like things that would be obvious fixes.
I genuinely don’t see the harm in letting DA crit, SL is a bit more tricky.
Other “lazy” option would be crit rating to crit damage mechanics that are on some other classes. (Chaos bolt, Demon hunter talent, etc).

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7

I don’t think haste scaling is where we are hurting at, but more with crit scaling, specially with csaa builds

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I just mean it as a recurring theme.

They make those effects that may look cool but that don’t interact fully with stats.

I mentioned Searing Light but Empyrean Legacy is another one.

Ok, cool, you cast a DS at the same time as FV but it’s on a fixed 20sed CD with no ways to reduce it.

So this “talent” only scales with Crit, Mastery and Vers.

They made a new interaction with Divine Hammer but the made Divine Hammer itself scale much less with haste.

It doesn’t reduce the time between ticks anymore as any DoT like ability would, instead it’s “haste scaling” is linked to our rotation and our capacity to add time on it’s duration.

But that interaction only specifically “benefits” (or accommodate) Templar because of EH and is otherwise broken in any other shape or form.

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It’s still really early in the season but right now in Undermine Ret paladin DPS is the worst melee in the game as far as damage. This definitely shouldn’t be ignored.

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Don’t forget those of us who main HPAL and sit at the bottom of raid and M+ currently. =\

I don’t play ret enough to know anything other than world quests and occasional delves.

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11

Likewise I don’t play Holy much.

But didn’t they get like 2 (soft) rework since DF?

There were mana issues in S1 TWW.
It can’t wield a 2hander for some reason.

Here’s my meme knowledge of Holy.

Legion was like “Yo I’m a melee too”.

Didn’t play BFA much.

In SL it was Ashen Hallow all the way in S1 before it was nerfed then it was “series of fart noise”. Not saying it was bad, I just don’t know what happened…

In DF people were communicating their discontent about range gameplay being forced.

(To this day I do not understand how that was supposed to work without a range damage spender on them but blizzard did it anyway)

Something about healing spender doing nothing, then Holy Shock doing simultaneously nothing and everything (not a dig, I know what people meant and that’s how it felt when I tipped my toe in holy last time).

That’s the extent of my recollection of what happened to Holy.

All across that however, consistently brought as the defacto provider of devo aura for the past 10 years.

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Hunter/Druid have both gotten like, what, 3-4 soft talent reworks over the course of TWW so far? Yeah, duh, we need one. Especially when we have what I believe to be flaws in the talent tree that are weighted SUPER heavily towards AoE at the cost of our single target performance. Flat % buffs to Greater Judgment, Final Verdict damage, etc would suffice but I would rather see a nuanced pass at our Ret talents.

See above. I do agree that Prot Paladin could stand to see a pass too though.

13

They reworked balanced in 11.0.5 and gave Resto like what 5 new talents and redesigned 1?

They aren’t interchangeable, a rework of balance doesn’t count as a rework of resto and vice versa.

In 11.1 they reworked the CLASS tree of druid.

This isn’t 3 rework of the same spec.

Hunter got reworked but again, individual specs and hero specs.

Not the same spec over and over.

Ret got one and by all accountable data, it is one of the most successful rework.

It still plays well, the tier is not enjoyable (to me at least) but that’s seasonal.

The only thing it needs is tuning and/or change to HP economy to refocus on spenders.

14

Ret feels like what they did to Warlocks mid-way through DF, when I switched to Ret -_-

We’re the last melee class based on logs, and there’s no alternative within Paladin like DK or Warrior. We’re stuck at the bottom of the barrel with current tuning.

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Yeah, that’s why I said talent rework not spec tree rework (pedantic I know). Radiant Glory is degenerate design that has devalued wings and like I said, we have far too many talents focused on AoE and too little focused on single target. I’d love to see them address those two things, but failing that at minimum they need to buff our single target spender values.

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No worries, I get it.

Agreed

I know why they did.
Its obvious that it was to make it feel impactful to have wings for every HoL.

But it, again and amongst other things, makes AW Might be useless because they’re essentially putting Crusade and Might on the same CD with no “downside” to Crusade.

That doesn’t matter.

They tune damage regardless, nobody does more damage because they have more ST talents or more AoE talents.

All spec are tuned to do loosely the same at some point ( don’t know why they are taking so long, RWF is finished).
If you have more ST talent or AoE talent, that just means the damage is distributed across more talents.

Like I said, none of the exclusively AoE talent are mandatory to get anywhere in the tree.

Otherwise, sure, increase the scaling of some talent for sure, I thought you were calling for a spec rework.

GG mate :slight_smile:

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Finally someone else who sees the real issues with the tree. Halleluya

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18

Its less that they’re mandatory and more like they’re the overwhelming selection in the tree. As it stands right now, the recommended Mythic+ talent build doesnt even take Jurisdiction. The solitary single target talent pick is Execution Sentence, and we all know how beloved that pick is. :sleeping:

Something has to give, either tuning or a handful of talents being changed up or given alternative options on the same node.

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That’s because Divine Hamme interaction with Empyrean Hammer is overbearing.

That build you reference, same build but you take Jurisdiction instead of Divine Hammer and its 10% less damage in ST.

I know people kind of pushed to keep that, but no way that’s healthy in the long term.

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For sure, and therein lies my dissatisfaction with the current tuning/talent interaction design. Hopefully we see some changes sooner rather than later, as we’re affected in all three major content paths.

1 Like