Ret: 42 ideas and suggestions for the future

Hi, everyone. I know these forums aren’t as active as they used to be, but as I think about Ret design a lot when I’m playing, it helps to write it all down to clear my head a bit. So to anyone reading this, thank you for indulging me. I mostly do PvP, but I assure you I find other things important as well such as a smooth and interactive rotation, the overall feel / lore of the class, cosmetics, and so on.

I’m formatting this post as a numbered list in an effort to make it easier to digest, but similar topics will be near each other, with the more nitpicky suggestions towards the bottom. Okay then, let’s begin.

(1) My biggest suggestion is to remove Crusader Strike from Ret’s rotation by having it upgraded to (replaced by) Blade of Justice for Ret during the early leveling process. Crusader Strike deals less damage than an auto-attack. It long ago lost the interesting mechanics it had when first introduced. The fact that it has two charges and two tier 25 talents devoted to it makes me want to laugh, or perhaps cry.

How do we fill the GCD void left after we rid ourselves of Crusader Strike? That’s actually the easy and fun part: reduce the cooldowns of our other holy power generators, perhaps give one of them a second charge, design a more interesting and powerful tier 30, and so on. I can see Hammer of Wrath and Divine Storm popping into the rotation more often.

(2) Art of War (Blade of Justice reset) is unable to proc twice in a row. I’m not sure why this is, but it’s stupid and should be fixed.

(3) Bring back Exorcism as an attack that always crits and can only be used on demons, undead, and abominations. This would be a perk against these creature types rather than something we are actively balanced around. Fantasy is so incredibly important to WoW, and the fantasy of paladins is centered around obliterating evil.

(4) Let’s stick to this anti-evil concept for a little while, starting with Turn Evil, which needs a lot of love. Turn Evil was returned to paladins in Shadowlands, but with a 15 sec cooldown and 20 yd range. This is the MoP version which could be used on players! Scare Beast, Banish, Shackle Undead, and other minor CC spells of this sort have no cooldown and a 30 yd range. Fix this, and have Turn Evil once again work on death knights foolish enough to use Lichborne around us (they are immune to fear effects because they’re undead, which means they should NOT be immune to Turn Evil).

(5) Wake of Ashes should also stun aberrations. Add “Sense Demons” and “Sense Aberrations” to the paladin kit for even more flavor.

(6) Divine Steed feels pretty lackluster at the baseline. Now that we’ve experienced the conduit, I think it’s clear that Steed should last for at least 4 sec. And if it must remain on GCD, then I think it needs something that differentiates it from other pure movement speed increases like Sprint and Dash. It should have a knockback, and perhaps Prot can talent it to drag targets along for the ride.

Before I continue, let’s make it clear that I think other classes should get cool stuff too. Hopefully in that light it doesn’t sound like I’m saying buff paladins to the moon. Also, all of these ideas can be considered independent of each other.

(7) Divine Steed should have a glyph that summons one of your favorited mounts. I want to charge into battle on a mechanostrider! If Steed remains a pure speed increase, add another glyph that replaces the mount with the Speed of Light animation from MoP. The graphic shouldn’t have to be a mount unless it does something cool like a knockback.

(8) Heart of the Crusader, our personal mounted speed increase, was replaced in Shadowlands by Crusader Aura. Great! Except, Heart of the Crusader was multiplicative, while Crusader Aura is additive. Basically, we lost a bunch of movement speed and death knights are now faster than us. Fix please.

(9) Add Heart of the Crusader back so that we don’t have to fiddle with Crusader Aura when we’re solo. It’s a nuisance.

(10) Heading into the next expansion, bake the fear reduction conduit (at 30%) into Concentration Aura. While this is a rather large buff to paladins in PvP, Concentration Aura needs to be more useful across the entire game, and across all paladin specs.

(11) I feel that auras should be on a 1 sec GCD, if not placed on their own separate GCD entirely.

(12) Hand of Hindrance is the longest longest cooldown snare in the game, and it’s dispellable. It might be cool to make it work like the old Chains of Ice where it starts as a 90% snare and goes down by 10% every second. Alternatively, reduce the cooldown to 20 sec so that it has a 50% uptime (up from 33%). Or, baseline the portion of Law and Order (PvP talent) that reduces the cooldown when Hindrance is removed early.

(13) This next one is a big change, that some people might agree with me on while others can’t imagine the game working like this. I believe class trumps role, and therefore whenever possible utility should be tied to class: delete Rebuke and give all paladins magic dispel. I suggest other classes receive these sorts of changes as well so that we all feel less generic and more tied to our classes.

(14) Make Absolution (AoE rez) class-wide.

(15) Let’s move onto talents, starting with tier 15. Righteous Verdict has this drawback where if you need to use another holy power spender, the buff falls off. Why, when RV already automatically loses to Zeal in AoE situations? Change RV to a flat ~12% damage buff to TV. No complexity is lost since RV was never something you actively managed.

(16) Execution Sentence deals less damage in PvP, even though it was already likely nerfed out of PvP when it lost the ability to crit. Try allowing it to deal the same damage in PvP as it does in PvE and see where that takes us.

(17) Tier 25 talents, as noted earlier, should interact with more interesting holy power generators than Crusader Strike.

(18) Tier 30: Fist of Justice and Blinding Light are great, with Repentance not seeing as much play. I believe Rep should be instant with a 6 sec duration, 1 min CD, and 20 yd range. Alternatively, it could require Selfless Healer to make it instant. For Holy and Prot, I think Rep should be replaced in their talent trees with Hand of Hindrance.

(19) Moving onto tier 35, I’d prefer if Unbreakable Spirit reduced the cooldown of Blessing of Protection instead of Lay on Hands, but I can see arguments against that. More importantly, Eye for an Eye has some pretty big problems. Is it ever the right choice in PvE, outside of the rare raid encounter with physical damage? It’s somewhat situational in PvP as well, and the “eye for an eye” part of the talent is a big joke: it deals less damage than Crusader Strike, which itself deals less damage than an auto-attack.

The best solution that comes to mind is to keep the name, but change it from an active ability to one that increases Shield of Vengeance absorb by 30%. But, I’m sure there are other ways to go about this. You could just stick Divine Protection here, if that wouldn’t be too broken.

(20) Tier 40: Divine Purpose should no longer be nerfed in PvP as it would be nice to have a possible alternative to Seraphim. I think it was nerfed in a previous expansion and the devs just forgot about it.

(21) Holy Avenger just doesn’t really work for Ret which has multiple generators that grant 2 or more holy power. Why not try something like “Your holy power spenders cost one less.” I think that would be a good start.

(22) Tier 45: I don’t think Selfless Healer is truly a viable alternative to Healing Hands. In that vein, make it so Selfless Healer only requires three stacks for the same effect, and allow it to be used on Turn Evil as well. Perhaps after you land a killing blow, your next Flash of Light is guaranteed to crit.

But whatever happens with this talent, the name should be changed to something other than Selfless Healer, which only made sense back in MoP when the bonus healing did not apply to yourself. Maybe call it Speed of Light.

(23) Justicar’s Vengeance is dead for another expansion, and I see no reason to revive it now that we have Word of Glory back. I’d replace it with Divine Storm healing, or perhaps utility that has nothing to do with healing. Would it be OP if Ret got Blessing of Spellwarding? Yea, probably.

(24) Tier 50: I don’t have much to say about this tier other than that Crusade feels a little outclassed by the other options. In PvP, Crusade has always struggled as it causes Avenging Wrath to lose its healing in exchange for a ramp-up mechanic that tends to be more downside than upside.

(25) Hooray, we made it to PvP talents! Aura of Reckoning and Unbound Freedom are great, wouldn’t change a thing about these. Blessing of Sanctuary is great too, but I think it should be baseline. It would be really fun to have in battlegrounds, but it’s just not worth taking over something like Luminescence or Vengeance Aura. It would be very situational in PvE, but that’s why it would be fun when you do find a use for it. I think the devs don’t understand this when they turn all these sorts of mechanics into PvP talents.

As for it being OP for Ret to have this baseline, I think other classes should get some of their kits baseline as well.

(26) I don’t like the way Judgments of the Pure is designed at all. Maybe if Ret had a shorter Judgment CD it would be better, but even then it ties utility to an important rotational ability, and whether or not you dispel the right thing is random. Maybe Prot should keep this talent, but it doesn’t really work for anyone else. I still think the best solution is to make magic dispel (and interrupts, etc) a class-based mechanic rather than role-based.

(27) Lawbringer and Divine Punisher are not great because with one you need to switch targets a lot, while with the other you need to train a target. These restrictions make them worse than our other DPS PvP talents such as Aura of Reckoning, Vengeance Aura, and Luminescence. I suggest combining them: “Judgment applies Lawbringer. Casting Judgment causes all other enemies with your Lawbringer effect to suffer up to 5% of their maximum health in holy damage. If your target is already affected by Lawbringer, Judgment generates an additional holy power.”

Numbers and even the mechanics could be tweaked a little, but my point is these talents should be combined into something better than what they are individually.

(28) I think Law and Order and Jurisdiction should be combined as well. I would baseline the part where if Hand of Hindrance is removed early, its cooldown is reduced. Then make the talent work like so: “Increases the range of Hammer of Justice and Hand of Hindrance by 10 yds. Blade of Justice now applies Hand of Hindrance for 3 sec.” You can leave out the range increases to BoJ and Divine Storm.

(29) I was unsubbed when I read about the 9.1 PvP talent updates. I thought the new Ultimate Retribution sounded fun and funny, so I subbed to give it a try.

It’s completely impractical, even in random battlegrounds. The graphic is difficult to see, even for me, the paladin who knows he is using this talent. Maybe just reuse the current Execution Sentence graphic? It’s prettier and hard to miss. Furthermore, 8 sec is simply too short and should be increased to 12. Ultimate Retribution should make me laugh and have fun in casual PvP, but even there it feels like a complete waste of a talent slot.

(30) Vengeance Aura and Luminescence are maybe a little boring, but they’re good. I mean, the crits from Vengeance Aura are actually pretty fun.

(31) Uther’s Devotion is a cool legendary, but unfortunately it was never competitive. First I would buff it to reduce the cooldowns of blessings by X per holy power spent: Freedom by 1 sec, Sac by 2, and BoP by 3. Then for the next expansion I would either make it a Ret PvP talent, or better yet have it replace Justicar’s Vengeance on tier 45. (Holy and Prot already have options which let them use their blessings more often.)

(32) I could see Guarded by the Light, a Prot PvP talent, being shared by Ret. If it’s worth using, that would help buff Selfless Healer. I’m trying really hard here to make tier 45 not just auto lock into Healing Hands. I love Healing Hands, but it should have some competition.

And that covers PvP talents. All that remains now are a few miscellaneous topics.

(33) The original Divine Storm animation was a thousand times cooler. WoW paladins these days are sadly lacking in heavenly thunder and lightning animations, which D3 crusaders have in spades. Shamans, warriors, and paladins should share the Thor aesthetic, but shamans gobble up the vast majority of it.

(34) Righteous Defense was more fitting for paladins than the generic Hand of Reckoning. But I understand why RD was replaced, unlike ripping magic dispel away from Ret in Cata. That I shall never forgive nor forget.

(35) I enjoy Soulforged Censer (it’s the Torghast anima power that increases your damage and healing when an enemy dies in your Consecration). I like how Cons is designed now where it has one foot in and one foot out of the rotation. But I also like when it has utility and situational use, so I don’t know. Maybe when an enemy dies in your Cons it increases your party’s movement speed, and it can stack and refresh so the more enemies that die the more movement speed you get.

(36) I think BoP could come down to a 4 min CD. It’s often been lower than that, or had two charges. It just feels really long at 5 min, and even Spellwarding is 3 min.

(37) I’m scraping the bottom of the barrel here, but Blessing of Sanctuary doesn’t use the new blessing animation where you pull out your libram. Fix please.

(38) Aura animations should pulse periodically.

(39) Aura animations are weird when you’re mounted. Some show at your waist, while others are beneath you on the ground. Crusader, which you cast more than any other aura while mounted, is practically invisible while you’re moving on your mount. It has a cool animation, but you just don’t get to see it often.

(40) Shield of the Righteous should be usable without a shield. It’s a magic shield projected (seemingly out from your chest) via holy energy. It would be highly situational on Ret, but fun and skillful to use in niche situations. If Holy can use it, why not Ret?

(41) Rebuke’s animation looks kind of bad with a shield, and really bad without one. I think it can use an entirely new graphic. If we don’t ever get Exorcism back, it had the perfect graphic for an interrupt where you stick your hand out and blast the target with holy energy.

(42) I kind of forgot to talk about 9.2. Well, I was originally a night fae paladin until I eventually gave up and went kyrian. I still think night fae could be great (without gimmicks via the legendary) if Blessing of Seasons was streamlined and improved. It should be a 2 min buff that cycles between seasons one after the other (it would still be up to the player to move it around to the right ally). The cooldown would be 3 min so that the downtime is at the end rather than between each season. Perhaps it generates one holy power on use and each time it switches to a new season, and Winter’s measly 30% snare should definitely be replaced with a useful PvP debuff such as a cast-speed reduction or healing debuff.

I would love for a revamped Seasons like this, and also Divine Toll of course, to follow paladins into the next expansion as talents or whatever.

And that’s that. Thank you so much for reading, and farewell!

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You don’t really need to go all out like that to change the rotation. Just change the cooldowns of our abilities like it was before Legion. Crusader Strike back to 4.5sec cooldown, Judgement back to 6sec cooldown. Blade of Justice could be lowered to 8sec cooldown. Honestly, Hammer of Wrath isnt an execute anymore, It doesn’t hit hard, it’s not really impactful. It just make the rotation more fluid during wings and when at the ‘‘execute phase’’ of boss fights. Remove the restriction of it and let it be part of our rotation.

And then you can shift some of the power off Divine Storm and Templar’s Verdict into Crusader Strike to make it deals atleast 2k damage like Blade of Justice.

Honestly, Yes. I’m so mad the Legion redesign made us into a plain basic knight. Its utterly boring. They stripped all the bane of the evils essence we had since Vanilla. Turn Evil should be instant cast, bypass the fear immunity on Lichborne. We should have Holy Wrath, Exorcism back and only usable on those creature types. Maybe talents/pvp talent can make those abilities do special things when talented to make them relevant in end game play.

Trash that ability is awful. The conduit make it bearable. You still need freedom to make it usable in pvp.

We had perflectly unique and fine mobility before this aberration appeared in the game. Long Arm of the Law with a 6sec cooldown Judgment or Pursuit of Justice like we had before.

Or the teleport talent we had early Legion Alpha would’ve been way better than what Divine Steed is, would have a lot more complexity and decisions made into the spell. Am I using the teleport as an agressive move to do my burst or am I keeping it defensively to get away. This is a better spell than Divine Steed > Freedom and still being in the middle of the map dying.

Divine Steed is just way too obvious and everyone seeing this will prepare in advance to being swapped to and preemptively use a defensive cooldown or you’ll get cc into it and negate your go or you trying to get away.

Crusader Aura really is a nuisance. Auras in general aren’t working like they were before. They keep dropping off when teleporting or zoning into new place/raid/arenas/bgs.

For having a 30sec cooldown on a spec with meh mobility outside of using Unbound Freedom. I would expect it to have less downsides than it has currently. Being magical effect means it get dispelled most of the time. And having 30sec cooldown too? Like why does it has such a long cooldown when every other melee applies them passively or on a different GCD and you can’t dispell them. For a 30sec cooldown I would hope it wouldn’t be dispellable. I would also hope it would apply in aoe so it would be more useful in pvp and m+.

It could stay a 30sec cd if it was undispellable, aoe apply and maybe deals damage while it lasts. Could be renamed to be like ‘‘holy chains’’. Could even be a different effect like a tethering effect to you.

I like how Execution Sentence completely change our burst window and impact gameplay.
But honestly I really really enjoy playing with the Anima Power that make our spender costs 2 holy power only. It completely change the dynamic and flow of the spec. I would really like to have it as a talent somewhere where it fits (Either tier 15 in place of Righteous Verdict or T40 replacing Holy Avenger)

Blade of Wrath is completely fine. Empyrean Power should be changed into Greater Judgment we had in Legion. Making Judgment hits 4 additional targets and generate 2 holy power. Considering Crusader Strike would have 4.5sec cooldown again, It could increase the damage it does by x% and guarantee making your next holy power spender to cost one less.

I would very much prefer having Fist of Justice back to its old iteration where it made your Hammer of Justice being a set 30sec cooldown and 20yards range. Repentance for Ret should be instant cast and 1min cd for it to be playable. Blinding Light is fine. Would be more played if it was 1min cd instead of 1.5min too.

100% Yes. Or just add Blessing of Protection to the talent. The Lay of Hands reduction is barely noticable ever since it cant be used in rbg and arenas anyway. The power of BoP has been reduced a lot over the expansion. More and more ‘‘physical’’ classes have been doing spell damage over the years so you can do damage through BoP, and some pure dps class has gotten purge too. So it doesnt deserve to be a 5min cd anymore. It should be 3min baseline.

Cavalier should be deleted from the row and be baseline into Divine Steed if we have to keep it. And replaced with another mobility talent since the theme of the tier is defensive vs mobility. Eye for an eye could be easily replaced with Divine Protection. And then Divine Steed either a mobility talent like Long Arm of the Law or Clemency back.

Divine Purpose shouldn’t have its damage and healing increase anymore and should have a higher chance of proccing. Maybe 30% from each ability instead of 15% only from spenders.

Holy Avenger could be replaced with the anima power that make all spender cost only 2 holy power. Seraphim is good as is.

If judgment goes back to 6sec cooldown. Selfless healer should go back to be affected by judgment. And only need 2stacks. Same if we stay about spenders. It should only require 2stacks. 4 is just too long, and its dispellable. Its just way too weak compared to Healing Hands.

Can’t believe Justicar Vengeance is still in the game after all these years. Delete it, replace it with anything really. I don’t even have an idea what it could be replaced with.

We already have a talent that affect Avenging Wrath in this row. Having Crusade and Sanctified Wrath is just saying do you want to boost Wings, Wings or have a 1min uncapped aoe damage ability that line up with all your other 1min cooldowns. Crusade could be the one that get changed into something different.

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Good suggestions

I’d rather rework crusader strike to make it more interesting. Generators deserve interesting interactions too.

Yes, please!

I want to have older mobility row from WoD so much. I love moderate semi-perma speed boosts rather than a charge like ability.

This is an overlooked issue. Aura is nice to speed boost allies, but out own passive should have remained.

I’d love DP to be relevant. I actually always pick it, because I love proc based gameplay, but it does feel like shooting myself in the leg if I really care about performance. Unfortunately random procs are impossible to balance probably.

There was actually an additional passive in WoD that was called Supplication that made FoL 100% crit for 8 second after honorable or xp kill. It created crazy multipliers with SH, so maybe this can be baked into the class again.

Yes, please!

I actually like the aesthetic on night fae, and really wanted to try them, but couldn’t just because of their covenant ability. It sounds awesome in theory especially after we lost our party buffs, but the fact that they’re so short, and mess with GCD so much is just too clunky.

The idea of just lowering our holy power generator’s CDs would be incredible along with possibly buffing their damage. I’m pretty sure Crusader Strike hits harder as Holy than it does when Ret. Makes zero sense.

I do not enjoy looking like an idiot when I’m outside of my burst windows because our “normal rotation” damage is so low that usually the tank is beating me.

Meanwhile other melee classes maintain moderately high damage during non-burst, and I can’t help but compare myself to them.

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A lot of interesting ideas.

I don’t think they need to remove Crusader Strike, but earlier access to Blade of Justice sounds like it would help leveling.

Broader use of Turn Evil is nice.

I disagree on losing Rebuke.

Auras on a separate GCD would be handy.

Agreed on Heart of the Crusader. I would rather Concentration Aura’s potential anti-fear upgrade just be baked into Crusader Aura baseline. Heart of the Crusader active on Pallies at all times.

Longer duration on steed would be nice.

Having exorcism back would be nice.

I think Justicar’s Vengeance would be fine if they just reverted it back to how it worked in Legion. If they are worried about its PvP damage, just have its PvP and anti-player damage lowered. Not it’s base damage (and then it’s pvp damage lowered in addition). I used Justicar’s Vengeance a LOT in Legion, esp. while solo. It can be good, they have simply nerfed it WAY too hard. If they don’t want to buff it back to Legion levels, then it needs to only cost 3 HP.

Holy Avenger for Ret causing spenders to cost 1 less is an interesting idea!

Coming Law & Order + Jurisdiction would be nice.
Perhaps also a return of “Long Arm of the Law”?

Being able, as Ret, to use Shield of the Righteous without a shield would be nice. As it stands, it’s a dead ability. I never use a 1 hander as Ret. Maybe adjust the effects of Shield of the Righteous for Ret + Holy who have 2 Handers in lieu of shields?

My own additions / preferences:

  • I would like an option to have the BFA Inquisition over Seraphim (maybe a Glyph?)
  • I think Aura of Mercy and Aura of the Martyr / Sacrifice should return to Holy.
  • I think Ret should get an Aura of Sanctity (the +5% holy damage FOR ALLIES — its damage should be baked into us baseline — this is a mini-equivalent to what some other classes have for + magic or physical damage, but in a slightly more limited scope — can boost damage of fellow Paladins and Discipline Priests — I don’t want a return to Legion’s “Blessing of Might” system where we had to sacrifice our own damage, but I think Sanctity Aura is thematic — so splitting the difference)
  • Ret Aura is just the old Ret passive, but now for all Paladins — it needs to be re-worked. With Diablo 2 remastered coming out, maybe re-visit how it could work like the old Thorns Aura again? (I’m not really sure on HOW to re-work it, just that it NEEDS to be re-worked from its current form)
  • Having Emancipate return would be nice.

To all of your Crusader Strike lovers: I think Crusader Strike was only really enjoyable in TBC, that even by Wrath it was already kind of lame. If it could have a more interesting role in the rotation, ok sure, but I also think the rotation can be full and awesome without it!

I’d rather shift damage into cooler holy power generators like Hammer of Wrath. And you can only shift so much damage out of TV and DS before they feel lame, and the weaker you make our damage finishers, the weaker you gotta make WoG too. That’s not a good thing.

Yea, my problem with Divine Steed is that especially without the conduit (which we may not have next expansion) it feels like a bad Sprint that’s very obvious and easy to counter in PvP. With such a loud graphic, it needs to do something extra like a knockback. That or go back to the drawing board with paladin mobility.

I think Unbound Freedom provides this gameplay pretty well in PvP, especially with movement speed gems and Echoing Blessings. I miss being night fae and using Korayn. In WoD, Long Arm + Empowered Seals > Justice was a bunch of fun too. I agree that this sort of gameplay is more fun than Divine Steed.

I enjoy it a lot too. Sucks that it’s not viable in PvP due to a nerf from years ago that no longer makes sense.

JV is kind of cool, but it feels really redundant with WoG to me. If you did want to fix it instead of replace it, which I kind of think would be a mistake, the first problem is Final Verdict deals about the same damage for two less holy power. The second is absorbs utterly counter it in PvP, which is not okay for healing we’d rely heavily on to survive.

I kind of enjoyed Inquisition too, but that’s because we’re weird.

Thanks to everyone for the responses and contributions!

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