Resto Shaman Needs Identity

Classes Shaman
96

So what are we talking about here? Spell competency, theme, unique mechanics, what? Everyone is bringing different things into this weird topic.

As I’ve already outlined, Resto shaman has a lot of unique mechanics to their spell kit. Not all of these are from the spec tree, but why does that matter so much? A lot of class tree abilities were moved from resto to be available to all shaman, same with other classes, and there are still unique spells in the spec tree.

Also, the OP doesn’t speak for anyone other than themselves. I don’t know about anyone else, but when I think of disc priests, I don’t think atonement, I think shields. Atonement is just healing from damage, and there are multiple other healer specs that can do that. Holy words are so basic I think it’s hilarious they are being used as an example for a spec defining mechanic.

Shaman identity can be a number of things depending on who you ask. It can be the water healer, it can be the totem healer, it can be the cooldown healer, or it can be the offensive support healer.

At the end of the day, most healers use very similar spells to get the job done.

97

Because the unique thing about Holy Words isn’t that they heal, it’s that they’re built around cooldown reduction, and almost every part of Holy’s kit is built around interacting with that. It also feels great getting a 1 minute CD back after only 20 seconds because you were playing into its CDR well with your other spell choices, and gives you clear, immediate feedback on how well you’re performing beyond whether or not people are eating dirt.

Ditto Disc. The majority of Disc’s kit is built around Atonement, either applying it, extending it, or contributing to it through damage. It feels great keeping your party up while spending most of your time DPSing, and there is very clear feedback on how you are performing based on how much time you’re spending casting heals versus casting damage.

Ditto Resto druid, with their kit being built around rolling multiple HoTs, or Holy paladin, with their Holy Power builders and spenders.

The identity of these specs is not coming from making health bars go up. All of their identity is in the mechanics they revolve around to do that, and those mechanics in turn give the player a clear picture of how well they’re succeeding at playing their spec beyond the party body count at the end of a pull.

Resto shaman does not have that. It makes the spec feel unfocused, and hard to tell whether you’re making the best choices you could be from moment to moment. Am I struggling to keep people up because I’m playing badly, or because I’m undergeared? The class itself doesn’t have a clear metric I can judge by.

2 Likes
98

What tier bonus needs dps to stand in healing rain?

99

And chain heal is built around the tide waters / high tide mechanic.

You can definitely play around those as well.

But I get it. Those dont count. And how beefed up chain heals can interact with half a dozen other individual resto sham tools don’t count

100

Using tidal waves procs… proper usage of cloudburst…. Knowing when to use which cooldown and rotating then properly…

101

Cloudburst is an optional talent that isn’t necessarily even competitive with base HST right now. It’s not THE defining Resto Shaman identity while it remains a completely optional spell.

“Knowing when to use which CD and rotating them properly” is a requirement of literally every role/spec of the game. It’s something literally every healer will need to learn how to do to succeed in their role.

102

I need you to give a clear definition of what you mean when you say identity, because throughout this thread you and others have used 3-4 different metrics to determine what an identity is.

103

No. They don’t. Because – and say it with me here – they’re optional. You can build Resto to avoid almost every Chain Heal talent, and depending on the content you’re doing and that season’s tier bonuses, barely using Chain Heal at all may be the optimal playstyle. Ditto Cloudburst, ditto Tidal Waves, ditto pretty much everything about Resto. Something you can play around isn’t an identity; something you are always playing around because it’s tied to every other part of your kit is.

And even if you were right, one spell is a pretty lackluster identity at this point in the game’s evolution, especially a spell that has historically fluctuated between overpowered and useless from patch to patch. That would be like Crusader Strike and Word of Glory being Holy paladin’s only HP builder/spenders, or druids only having multiple HoTs as a 3 minute cooldown.

Cloudburst Totem is the closest thing the spec currently has to a truly unique mechanic that the rest of the kit plays around, but it’s still not there because besides being optional, nothing else in the kit actually interacts with it beyond contributing to the charge up. Plus, being on a relatively long timer with the detonation point only awkwardly halfway in your hands makes it hard to use effectively before a steep learning curve.

It’s still the best place to start building from, though. Making Cloudburst’s core mechanic of stored healing a baseline aspect of Resto has a lot of potential. For example, Rain Dance/Cloudburst could be a switch spell that while Rain Dance is active, all your healing spells contribute a portion of their healing to a reservoir, and when you switch to Cloudburst, all your healing spells draw from that reservoir for increased potency based on how much you stored up during Rain Dance.

Talents could then modify how much storing/drawing different spells do to/from the reservoir, cause damage spells to contribute to the reservoir, increase the reservoir’s cap, reduce the cap in exchange for faster building/bigger spending, grant additional effects based on whether you’re in Rain Dance/Cloudburst mode, etc.

1 Like
104

Actually, I think my definitions for specialization identity have remained completely consistent throughout the entirety of this thread.

What’s occurred is no one has been able to come up with a counterpoint or successfully identified an argument to nullify my original point, and that much is still true after 80+ posts.

Several other posters have come in here (recent posts by Lokka) to support my original point. Resto Shaman doesn’t have a unique identity (gimmick, playstyle) compared to it’s peers. All of the points that have been brought up are optional talents and therefore are not a core identity for the spec. Disc priest can’t talent out of Atonement. Preservation can’t talent out of Echo. Those are core to their gameplay loop and would require ground-up redesigns if removed. None of the interactions in Resto Shaman’s kit are impactful enough to require a ground-up redesign if removed. THAT is a spec identity.

105

At least tell me you understand why this feels like constant goal posts moving?

"Resto spells are boring because they just move health bars. They need to do something unique like holy words’

Ok but holy words just move health bars.

“Ok but by words have a cool down mechanic where if you play a certain way during healing intense situation get them up faster”

Ok like chain heal

" Ok but chain heal and things that make it better are just optional despite the fact everyone uses them atm"

It’s like an argument is given, refuted, then a brand new reason to dismiss things is given
Refuted. Then a new reason
Rinse. Repeat.

Now throw in all the unique aspects of resto? Just outright dismissed because they are talents.

Maybe the unique spec identifier can be having a ton of situation specific tools to opt into to help with a variety of situations.

106

Again, identity is a bit subjective. I think playstyle/mechanics are what this thread is trying to focus on.

I still say totems and big passive CDs/Heals are (were in the case of some CDs) the specs identity. We are the lazy healer =) insert chain heal meme here

Yes, other shaman specs have totems via class tree, but look at our spec tree compared to theirs. They each take one totem in their spec tree (WFT for Enh and LMT only in some builds for Ele). Resto’s raid build takes 5 (HTT/SLT/MTT/EWT/CBT).

I do think Ancestral Awakening could (should) be our mastery and then give just Resto back the old AG (Only need to keep the AoE healing/cap nerfed for Enh/Ele). Then you have passing healing from totems HST/HTT, you get AA as our mastery (passive healing on crits), and then AG/Asc are both CDs that just let you do normal heal spells for more big passive healing.

1 ST heal, 1 AoE heal, 1 HoT, some fun utility totems / shields and tons of passive healing via totems & CDs.

I am fine with being the lazy passive healer spec =) People who want more complexity can play disc or rdruid or pevoker =)

Oh and given how we have to hard cast for a lot of our healing (HW/CH/HR) AND damage (Chain Heal / Healing Rain in AoE and Lava Burst / Lightning Bolt in ST), I think passive healing works well. We don’t get damage into healing like Disc/MW…we don’t get tons of damage/healing from insta casts like rdruid and even holy priests as far as healing goes (PoM/HWs/etc.). So yes…make us the big totem/cd/passive healer =)

1 Like
107

This post has less to do with gameplay mechanic identity and more to do with THEMATIC identity, but I made a post that relates to resto shaman’s need for a better represented and communicated thematic identity:

One point I kinda ended up at there is that restoration has historically not had a well-fleshed out theme for how they heal, but in the past couple expansions have definitely moved towards becoming water/tide/storm-based healers. However, I’d argue that that theme is not really as obvious as other specs to other players. Like for example, even if you never play mage or paladin, everyone knows that a fire mage does damage by throwing all kinds of fire balls, and paladins smack things with holy light. They may not know the intricacies of the playstyle, but they understand the theme.

But I feel like Restoration shaman’s method of healing has never really shined through thematically. Is it sorta nature based like resto? But also with a bunch of other nonsense? Lots of folks don’t really conceptualize it but…

Restoration shamans are embodied by Kul’tiran’s Tide Sages. They are basically water benders that can control water and the weather. They make rainclouds, summon and accumulate clouds, waterbend the s@#$ out of water, throw tides at their allies that splash all over the battle field. Their talents are named after floods, rain storms, lightning storms, and many of their totems are water based and relate to the tide as well.

As such, my main argument in that post is that if any two classes get the new hero talent tree “stormbringer”, it should be elemental and restoration. Enhance have a good claim too, but I’d argue not as much as restoration.

I think this would be a great opportunity for blizzard to really communicate to the community at large: Restoration heals by controlling the weather, and water.

And on that note, they should really change the name of restoration at this point to help cement that identity as well. Even if you don’t play restoration shaman, it would be awesome if everyone understood, thematically, that while fire mages are the fire benders of Warcraft, everyone should think of restoration shamans as the Water Benders. If “frost” or “fire” or “fury” can be the name of a spec, so can “Tide” or “Water” or even just “Storm” (if folks can shake their perception that storm=damage. It doesn’t have to be associated with damage.) (also, name changes to carve a better identity have precedence, with combat rogues becoming outlaw, and getting a better defined identity in the process.)

(Some may argue that ‘spirit’ and ‘ancestral’ stuff is part of resto’s theme. I’d argue that is part of SHAMAN’s theme, and that is present in both other specs as well, so is absolutely a moot point.)

(“Totemic” as a hero spec sounds bland AF and should be changed to something that actually sounds like an identity someone would want to be. If they are trying to lean in towards something voodoo-y, they should just go full “shadowhunter”. Dwarves have been able to cast hex for a decade at this point, every class can be a holy priest. Who cares about the cultural identity tied to that kind of thing. Make it interesting!!!)

1 Like
108

I think the water “theme” is readily apparent within the Resto Shaman kit. But what exactly does being a “water” healer DO? What does being a water healer let me accomplish that’s different and unique?

Atonement lets Disc priest heal through their damage. Echo lets Preservation copy a spell at a reduced effectiveness on an ally. Holy Words are an integrated cooldown reduction system for Holy Priest, where their spells interact with their major CDs to enable them to heal.

What does being the “water” healer mean for Resto? It’s a theme but it doesn’t actually offer anything in terms of gameplay beyond blue-colored spells flying across the screen.

109

Because you’re strawmanning us.

I have been saying the same thing in every response I’ve made to you. Identity is something baked into the core of a spec which ties into the majority if not the entirety of how it plays. Optional talents are not identity. A single spell is not an identity.

The interactions of a full kit around a core mechanic are an identity. Holy Words are an identity because Holy’s entire kit works around them, providing varying forms of CDR. This is true of Holy no matter how you build. Atonement is part of Disc no matter how you build, and every part of tier kit revolves around setting it up and/or feeding it. Having a slew of HoTs is always part of being a Resto druid, Holy Power is always part of Holy paladin, etc.

Resto does not have this. Almost everything about Resto is an optional talent, and very little of it has direct synergies with anything else. The most direct synergy the spec has is Tidal Waves, which is like saying Holy priest’s identity is Surge of Light; or Flow of the Tides, which is both optional, and a choice node.

2 Likes
110

I just want to say thank you. You completely understand the point I am trying to convey in this thread.

111

It offers a lot of passive healing =) Waves keep crashing in the ocean. Rivers and streams continuously flow. Etc.

I do think passive healing should be our identity with how the spec is built. We focus on Crit and hard-cast almost all of our spells (CH/HW/HS/HR/CL/LvB/LB). It would make sense that we get some help on the passive side AND the continuous flow of water is a theme that makes sense imo. I also think you can change our Mastery to Ancestral Awakening as the pivot point.

The only other option I can think of is Resto Battle Sham where healing spells buff damage spells and vice versa. Basically take MoTE and flesh that whole theme out. Flame Shock buffs Riptide and vice-versa. Healing Wave buffs Lava Burst and vice-versa. Healing Surge buffs Lightning bolt and vice-versa. Chain Heal buffs Chain Lighting and vice-versa. Healing Rain buffs Earthquake and vice-versa (Give Resto Earthquake). This of course would require a pretty large undertaking and reworking of the spec though AND might not be very popular lol.

I do still think big passive healing/CDs to counter all the hard-casting we do is the move, and passive healing fits with the water theme imo.

1 Like
112

I actually really like this as a concept. You’re not wrong in that it would take a pretty large retuning to pull this off, but it would indeed give resto shaman a super unique identity and gameplay loop.

There was that leggo in SL that would buff Chain Heal/Chain Lightning when alternated. I imagine this would be kind of built into the rest of the spec. I would so be on board with this.

The most obvious choice is to just make Riptide and Cloudburst more integral to the spec, but your idea would be far more interesting.

1 Like
113

Totems are just buffs with a physical manifestation in the game world. Healing Tide Totem and Tranquility are nearly the same skill. Renewing Mist and Healing Stream Totem are nearly the same skill. Yes, there are definitely differences that impact how they play out, but it’s a bit silly to say "Shaman’s identity is that when they press their version of tranquility or renewing mist, their tranquility and renewing mist works a little differently, but they also get a little 3D object in the world :smiley: "

Is there any reason healing rain or a druid’s efflorescence couldn’t include a little 3D totem in the game world? The concept of something being a “totem” is arbitrary and basically ONLY a skill-type designation to determine what relatively-boring talents get to affect what skills. I mean, I guess I would call it distinct and unique, but that the implications of it are just not that significant. They could easily remake every totem to just be a skill/buff/cooldown you cast that emanates out of your character (or target the ground like healing rain/spirit link), and the class would play basically the exact same with negligible differences.

I made sure to start my post by stating I was describing the theme of the class specifically and made no comments on gameplay mechanics whatsoever.

Based on most people saying that the “stormbringer” hero talent tree should go to elemental and enhancement, I don’t think most folks have gotten it through their head what resto’s theme really is. Would YOU agree that if the spec’s theme is water/flood/tides/waves/rain/clouds, then between enhance and resto, resto is the clear choice for getting the Stormbreaker hero talent tree? Sure, all three specs have a claim, but stormbreaker is the only one of the three that relates to how every single restoration shaman is healing (thematically).

To answer your question on what their niche is, I would argue that rshaman’s niche in the game is that it is the easiest and most forgiving healer to play and is a fantastic entry point for people looking into getting into healing while playing optimally. You can think of it as the beastmastery spec of the healers.

Compared to resto druids, it is a lot easier to deal optimal damage (avoids shapeshifting, melee range), it is way more forgiving if you forget to get riptides out compared to lifebloom, it is far more reactive and has a mastery that allows you to catch up easier than the proactive-nature of druids.

Compared to mistweavers, it is far easier to understand the relationships between your spells and passives, which can be extremely complex to optimize. It is far easier to do damage, as you do not have worry about your positioning as much and are ranged.

Honestly this post will get long if I go through everyone, but compared to preservation, you do not have to worry about using combos effectively, or having your potent heals be on moderate sized cooldowns. Disc you don’t HAVE to do damage if you do not want to, holy paladin no melee, less impactful and intricate cooldowns. Etc. Instead of something like pain suppression or ironbark, rshamans have 6% damage reduction on perma-uptime earthshield. They sacrifice burst on-demand damage reduction, for consistent perma-DR. Their mastery helps with catching up when behind.

All that is to say: for me what makes rsham unique is its simplicity and forgiveness. Beast mastery, affliction, and balance all do damage over time, but it’s clear that beast mastery’s niche is it’s forgiveness and ease of use, not how intricate it’s damage over time is compared to those more-intricate specs. I don’t have to tab-target-reapply the correct dot in the right timing, to do effective AOE damage, I just push multishot. And if I stop pushing buttons for a little, my pets are still doing damage.

I am certain it is intentional that Rsham doesn’t have their version of atonement, or echo, or ancient teachings. There’s still some room for skill ceiling, like cloudburst, but the simplicity and forgiving nature of its toolkit IS its niche, in my opinion, if we’re talking game play.

1 Like
114

I agree. Shaman is still the easiest healer to play optimally imo. Holy Priest as always been right there too, but does require a higher ceiling now with HW CDR gameplay.

This is why I think they should simply lean into the passive healing option. It’s a simple spec, that has to hardcast almost everything. RSham does more hard-casting compared to any other healer and it’s not even close imo.

Like you said above, the difference is casting mechanics. Holy Priest and Resto Druid have a ton of insta cast healing and damage, but have channeled or cast time CDs. Shaman is opposite and that should remian. HTT/SLT/AG/Asc/MTT etc are all insta cast CDs. My gut tells me that is partially because the base spell-kit is almost all hard-cast (Only riptide and flame shock are insta).

Lean into it. Hard-cast toolkit with lots of insta cast CDs and passive healing (Including the mastery shift to Ancestral Awakening).

1 Like
115

Oooo now you have my brain flowing.

Could be cool if they leaned more into the storm theme I was talking about thematically, and have wind/lightning damage spells that also impact tidal/rain spells.

Like, casting chain lightning on a target in melee range of a party member makes it (healing) rain there, and rain increases the damage of your lightning (see the flavor?) Maybe don’t go full disc-priest “ya gotta damage to heal” but make it so their niche is that compared to disc/mist, it is much easier to just start doing damage from the start of combat, with the downside being that when you do fall behind, all of your main catch-up skills are hard-cast. Basically easier than disc to play damage but also less reward/necessity.

Seems like it could be accomplished with some minor changes of how dense certain GCDs are in terms of effect.

Could add in some wind-based type spells, maybe deals a little aoe damage, reduces physical damage by affected targets by X seconds, and if you hit your cloudburst totem, adds healing to it or increases it’s duration or something. (Blowing a cloud into the totem?)

Bear with me, give resto shaman earthquake, but also have it create tidal waves that expand from the AOE, and any friendly those waves hit causes a heal. (Or even have a mechanic where earthquake acts as normal if it is hitting an enemy, or you can target into empty space and if earthquake doesn’t hit any target, ONLY THEN does it pulse out tidal waves.) You can even just get rid of wellspring and add a mechanic like this.

Frost shock has some hailstorm animation and when ya hit an enemy they get a frost debuff that makes it so if you cast lavaburst on them, the hail/frost melts and becomes healing waters or something.

Ooooo.

Yeah IDK. I think everything I describe would be quite the task.

I was honestly extremely happy with where RSham was when I last played it, but still fun to brainstorm