"Resource Flooding" TWW nerfs (Your class is going to feel bad in 11.0)

EDITED TO ADD BALANCE AND FERAL TO THE LIST

Lock main here. Obviously, pretty incensed about how Demo is being gutted, but after talking to my mates about TWW in Alpha and rereading all the talent tree changes and noticed a common statement about the philosophy of TWW. Let me introduce you to the unannounced box feature for every class in TWW:

Resource Flooding reduction

After all the Hero Talents were announced and Ion said on stage “we’re not changing your builds”, devs have without warning been systematically making every class clunkier. Initially, I thought this was a Lock problem with Demonic Core, but I noticed every rework focused on weakening core gameplay for every class. You’ll notice terms like “tactical” or “health of the class” pop up constantly. These both translate to “more auto attacks/filler spells”. Let me present you with the Warrior, DK, and Druid changes over the past few weeks:

WARRIOR
-“In Dragonflight, Rage generation for warriors of all specs was higher than what we are happy with. We feel that warriors play best when Rage is a resource they must manage tactically, so we have reduced or removed the Rage generated by several talents and abilities”
-“Our goals for Arms in The War Within are to restore Arms Warriors’ tactical relationship with Rage generation and spending and provide more choices in your talent builds.”

DK
-“For Unholy our goal was to address some of the flood of resources
-“Empower Rune Weapon has been removed.
Developer’s note:This will still be available for Frost in their spec tree but both Blood and Unholy were often flooded with resources and a big unnecessary contributor to this was Empower Rune Weapon”

BALANCE:
-“Our top goals for Balance Druid in The War Within are to ease some of the constraints on their rotation, open up a greater variety of builds and play styles, and tune their balance and resource generation.”
-“Balance’s Astral Power generation increased a lot in Dragonflight. We’re pulling back some of those increases to slow the pace of play just a little, make pooling gameplay more interesting”

FERAL
-“Our top goals for Feral Druid in The War Within are to slow down its rotation a little to make Energy usage more tactical and to bring more clarity to playing the spec.”
-“Feral gained a lot of strong Energy generation talents in Dragonflight. As a result, it lost some of its feel as a spec where sometimes the best thing to do was pause to let a DoT tick down or for your Energy to recover.”

To put into blatant terms, the goal of the dev team going into War Within is to slow everybody down. Some of you may like the concept, but the way they’re doing it (lowering resources) isn’t going to make it feel like Vanilla, it’s just doing to make everything feel less fluid and rotations less interconnected. It’s not pruning down moves or talents either, they are legitimately angling moves like Demon Bolt or Mortal Strike to be a "payoff " instead of part of your rotation while most of your rotation is taken up by filler moves (which are being buffed in fairness)

Chances are, this will affect your classes. I’m putting this out there so everyone is aware: You are going to feel a lot less fluid and powerful in WW. Because of the breadth of these changes, I’m positive this was a stated goal for the Dev team and not something up for debate.

I believe this is going to lead into a huge pruning in Midnight when all of the no longer used moves can be cut, but in TWW we’re going to really be feeling the pain of meaningless choices and extremely filler-heavy gameplay.

For the record, I think it was incredibly dishonest and disrespectful to not have announced this, but what’s done is done. Make sure to keep up with the alpha.

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I love demo, but I’ll love it a lot less if I stand there spamming shadow bolt all the time.

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I have another thread over on the lock forums where a lot of us are discussing Demo specifically. It’s rough man. In their case we’re going into probably the worst the spec has ever been. Idk if you read but hounds are a 30% for a core now. It is legitimately just Shadowbolt

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Feral druids are having their energy regen lowered in TWW too.

Some are happy about this and some are not, but its another example of the slowing down of some specs.

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I’m actually gonna go grab this to throw in my OP. Thanks for the tip. This is what I mean though, Demo looks the worst because they’re probably the quickest generator-spender spec, but nobody is getting any social treatment and some classes/specs are gonna get really hurt

Windwalker: gets an incredibly well-received rework that addresses many of the problems the spec has lived with for over a decade.

Unholy: Gets a rework that addresses the spec’s ST vs. AoE issues and keeps the 3-minute playstyle intact while giving it convincing options, albeit at the cost of a class tree that needs a little more time in the oven.

Arms: Gets its silly Rage generation toned down which is a healthy direction for a spec that’s in desperate need of an overhaul.

Demonology: Loses 66% of the most engaging and skillful component of its gameplay loop and gets to spam its weak filler in return.

Destruction: Loses its coolest talent and the coolest set bonus it’s ever received because Blizzard simply refuses to just remove the Infernal stun from Blasphemy spawns for a very specific and very stupid reason.

???

Like, I think there’s room to slow down some specs. Arms definitely needed its Rage generation reduced considerably since the spec never took advantage of it outside of Execute, and Feral has its moments where it could be slowed down a tiny bit, but the current 10.2.7 Demo playstyle has been the most well-received version of the spec since MoP and Blizzard’s just trying to gut it.

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Obviously, hard agree on Warlock, I have no idea what’s going on there or why they refuse to address. I’ll have to point you to the Warrior changes though, as they’ve been mostly negative.

-Fury is very angry that they’re being slowed down, as that directly breaks their rotation/gameplay style

-Arms players have pointed out that outside of Execute, they have no good rage spenders. In line with my post, this means instead of any other cool Arms techniques, they’re doubling down on making Execute your big payoff instead of a rotational move.

I completely agree, btw. But I think button bloat, CDs, and useless talents are the way to do this. Resource generation should not be the biggest limiting factor in people’s rotations, they should be easy to understand and you should never have to think about it if you’re playing correctly

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Removing ERW from Unholy is a huge improvement to the specs flow.
If I’m supposed to be concerned about changes like this occurring more often, I am in fact the opposite.

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I think that’s a fine change tbh. Unholy’s getting a rework that gives it options that aren’t explicitly stacking crazy amounts of Haste and getting PI and watching the Gargoyle go brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr every 3 minutes.

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It seems like there’s some love for DKs here. That’s good! any patch notes I didn’t list also don’t pertain to the point I’m making though.

ERW may have been a sucky move and it sounds like they gave you some more build options. But they’re reasoning, being that you generate too many resources (the highlighted part) is a problem. Other classes aren’t getting the love UH is. Fury warriors are getting slower and demo is losing their imps because of the same thought pattern.

Not to be rude, but this really isn’t a discussion about DK patch notes, it’s a discussion about a worrying design philosophy and it seems like the DK developer is implementing that better than others.

some classes needed changes so badly, blizz refuses to make reworks mid expansion , so every new expansion is a dice roll, my spec is gonna suck (gameplay wise) or is gonna be fun to play?

numbers can be changed anytime , but how the spec flows hardly gets changed.

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Reminds me of when at the end of legion into BFA they made all abilities on a I think 1 second gcd

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To be fair. I often find myself rage capped and unsure where to spend the rage. I’m not thrilled with the rage nerf, but I understand where their coming from.

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This is what I was thinking about while reading OP

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I hope this is innaccurate to the final product, or they change their minds. The only reason I can’t get into rogue/feral is because sitting there waiting for energy to fill up so I can do anything is boring.

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This is an observation worth pointing out, but let me ask: Has that hindered your rotation? It doesn’t feel great to have extra Rage, but at the end of the day moves still have CDs and that extra Rage doesn’t translate into extra attack power, just a dead moment. This fix will leave you with the same dead time, but now instead of “I need to wait for Mortal Strike to come off CD”, the problem will be “I need to wait for more auto attacks to use my move”.

Wouldn’t it be a better solution to give you more ways to spend your Rage so you have more rotational choice? I’m not sure why, but it seems like the goal for classes is to have just enough resources to eek out a basic rotation and to increase filler/auto times between attacks.

At least they had the decency to announce this lol

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The reworked DK tree already got me like

Ah jeez

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They are gutting base core kits to make room for hero talents which is against what they said about evergreen systems moving forward.

Not happy about this at all.

:surfing_woman: :man_surfing:

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Hmmm yes but no?

It makes me think I’m doing something wrong, so I’ll start spamming slam to lower my rage. But then I might miss MS coming off cooldown or an overpower charge getting capped.

So maybe for better players it doesn’t but for me it kinda does.

I also recognize your point, if the rotation goes smoothly why nerf the Regen. Though, id rather not have another button. I think arms is in a good place with buttons.

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As a general rule, I’m not a big fan of white damage.

Simply, I’m not a big fan of a stalled rotation. Waiting for stuff to fill back up.

I have enough problems keeping a basic rotation running while keeping my eyes on the playfield in contrast to … waiting …

I certainly do that as Destro. Waiting for a cooldown to end, waiting for a shard, but I typically have things I can interlace while waiting. A “filler” spell, I can move (“Can’t do anything anyway, may as well move.”)

But for melee? No, that’s terrible. Just standing there next to a mobs, auto attacking and not “doing anything”.

Not fun.

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