Resilient Keys

Gameplay Dungeons, Raids and Scenarios
21

The “failing upwards” argument is kind of a joke. Key depletion exists to drag out our engagement, and without it, the real danger to Blizzard is that people would succeed upwards too quickly, finish their seasonal goals, and go on hiatus.

It’s a foundational element to gaming in general that the ability to repeat a challenge you just failed at provides more time to iterate on your group strategy and personal tactics. Virtually every game you play has this natural dynamic. WoW’s current approach severely interrupts the dynamic by saying, “oops, you failed, now go do a different dungeon at a lower level, and MAYBE when your key re-levels, you’ll get the same dungeon you just failed at and another chance to prove yourself.”

There is a legitimate argument for Blizzard’s key depletion approach, aside from the more obnoxious stretching out of player hours for Blizzard’s bottom line. The legitimate argument is that by repeatedly forcing players to engage with a variety of dungeons one level below their currently preferred difficulty, this provides a larger pool of groups in LFG for the mass of players working their way up.

So while the people at +14 find the +13 to be a chore that wastes a lot of time, the people at +12, needing a +13 to up their rating benefit from the larger selection of groups, and the opportunity to routinely group with slightly more advanced players. Not that I think it’s the best approach, or that the playerbase wouldn’t adjust to a better system designed to waste less time by letting people target the challenges they’re after. But the increase of the player pool in LFG is the real argument for it.

The argument that the danger is players “failing upwards”, on the other hand, is not a serious one. Additionally, if keys did not deplete, the risk to player time from running into someone that supposedly “failed upwards” would be even less - because upon seeing the poor performance, the group could boot the underperforming player and go again, without losing the key.

Again, the issue to Blizzard is close to the exact opposite of the “failing upwards” argument. Their concern is players succeeding upwards too fast, so they slow the rate at which players can hone their approach on the challenge they just failed by interrupting their attempts with the need to re-clear lower level dungeons.

3 Likes
22

You say you get +14 that you’ve timed 3x in a row, that’s a ticket to 15.

And a 15 is 2x runs on a higher difficulty (assuming you fail.)

23

No, I said we got the same +14 we already timed, 3x. Meaning that we timed 3 +13 keys and got the same key we already timed.

24

No, it’s definitely failing upwards. People succeed because they got lucky, not because they remotely belong.

If my strategy (which it is) on some bosses, is simply praying that I don’t get targeted by mechanics, is it viable?

sure, it can work, but…

if I have to do it consistently? not so great.

25

This is a great point actually and I never really thought of it. I actually spent all day today with a few buddies doing weekly keys for crests and vault and we actively were bringing in the 5th player in the LFG that needed the last key for their resilience. people were beyond grateful and for the most part very qualified. I also notice a ton of keys in the LFG every day at all hours and wonder if it’s because people just send their keys now because of this safety net. Either way, I think it’s a great addition and I was originally skeptical about it.

2 Likes
26

You don’t time a +14 or +15 key because you’re lucky though. The only thing you can consider “luck” is when you happen to join a group that can carry you, and I doubt that will happen.

Especially when you’re playing with a static group this isn’t a thing, you don’t luck your way through keys.

2 Likes
27

It’s true to some extent, you can get lucky by not being targetted by things you struggle with.

Anyhow, if you’re consistently timing, let’s say, priory 13 with no deaths, no close calls and minutes to spare, you can play a priory 14 the exact same way and time it. You may not succeed with a priory 15 though, because the step from a consistent and well-executed 13 may be to steep for a 15.

I know you want a change in how resilient keys work, but in the meantime: are your team rerolling your 13s into the 14 you’re about to attempt? Let’s say you want to do priory 14 and one of you have that key. If you can get just one priory 13 you can make infinite attempts on that one to build a suitable strategy, and find workarounds for any pain points you may have. You can go for 99% and kill last boss, then just reset key if there’s something you want to work on a bit more.

There great ways to get practice in to make the next key level somewhat trivial, especially when you’re at the level where casts going off aren’t deadly. Mistakes are rather forgiving there.

Last piece I’ll add: if there’s any specific pain points in a dungeon you’d appreciate getting some help with, feel free to tell. I’d happily share my ideas on how to make things easier, I feel like I’ve got a pretty good grasp of how to trivialize most mechanics.

1 Like
28

I do time keys by getting lucky.

I wager I have a 40% chance of dying on Mordretha.

Prob have a 10% chance of getting hit by the moving grate on Gorechop.

And I just pray missiles don’t hit me on last boss of Motherlode. (Yes, safe spot exists but even then.)

1 Like
29

Correct. But good luck getting that +14 priory. The problem is getting the key. Once you do have that key, it’s easy to make a mistake because you’re under extra pressure to not fail that one shot. If you do fail it, good luck getting the key again. You literally waste time getting it back, and that’s demotivating af.

Quite frankly that’s a skill issue.

1 Like
30

Doesn’t have to be priory unless that’s your last 14 though, any untimed 14 would do. And since you’ve got 4 people rerolling 13 keys to get the practice key of whatever key you’re trying to time, there’s a 50% chance you get the practice key you want.

That’s why you ought to practice it in 13 until you’re consistent and comfortable with it. Once you are, you can play a 14 the exact same way and time it slightly less comfortably, but still safely.

I get that, but you are also reaching into the competitive end of m+. It’s not unreasonable that the game consumes more time at its highest level, even though it may be frustrating.

31

Never said it wasn’t. It’s still luck.

32

a 14 isn’t even close to its highest level, and I disagree there should be some sort of price to pay to have fun. I don’t think we’ll ever agree on the subject, but it’s only a matter of time until Blizzard fixes this.

33

Indeed, but all 14s put you among the top 1% of players. I’d argue thats in the competitive end, albeit the lower part of it.

Let’s say you could attempt those 14s until you luck out and time it, now you’re just stuck with 15 until you luck out and time those too.

Probably not. I believe it’s reasonable to practice 13s until you’re consistently clearing them with your group, by then 14 won’t be a noteworthy difference.

I’d emphasize more with your perspective if it was from the PuG player rather than the premade, as it’s next to impossible to be consistent with pugs.

34

With pugs you can at least try to join a key you need and just bruteforce it. With a premade you’re limited to when you play together and pray for the right key each week.

35

Sure, but invites are anything but guaranteed. You can often spend 30 minutes just looking for a key when pushing higher keys, same time as it takes to push your premade key back up to the desired level.

36

Correct, but good luck convincing people to play something they don’t want to play because they can actually do fun stuff in the same time.

37

that’s an issue with the community. People are looking for people who have timed the key already a lot of the time (aka overqualified), instead of within the IO range (aka qualified). It’s their key though, so I can’t fault them. People are also looking for the meta as a primary, when a lot of the time the people running meta specs aren’t actually doing that great, because all the good meta spec players are pushing 16-18 atm.

I’m working on resi 15 atm, and I’m pretty sure every single one of my timed 15s has been mostly off meta or all off meta, except for me as the vdh. Moral of the story? You don’t “need” a meta spec up to 15, and if someone has achieved a respectable io with an off meta spec they’re probably pretty good. Big thing is to know what role they’re filling in the group.

38

Indeed.

Agreed, but I’d go as far as to say you don’t need it for 18s either, since there’s keys that has been done with off-meta specs at that level. It may sure help though.

39

for sure. i just can’t speak to those yet. One away from resi 15 and all. Having said that, you’re right. However, those off meta comps still have a comp of sorts. if that makes sense.

40

Well yes, you won’t see a team of 5 druid/pallys/monks at that level for example. Of course you’ll still need a functioning comp, it just doesn’t have to be the meta comp.