How do you feel about resil keys?
I want to share some ideas and potential pros and cons. Please expand if I missed anything or you disagree
Resil should apply for every key regardless of you having all keys at the level timed
it’s fun to push your limits but it’s demoralizing to only have once chance to push your limits. Current resil system helps prevent the key from falling far, but still exists a gap between pushing your limits, and replaying to get back to a chance.
I’ve heard the argument " you’ll just ang your head over and over again" or “that would make it like raiding where you can just pull over and over till you get it”. Both of those are somewhat already true in the current system, the difference being, do you get io (if any key is resil) or are you trying to time your resil key just to get another single opportunity for io gains?
the current system, while an upgrade from previous system, still holds you back from the ultimate goal: pushing your limits. For those again this, why do you only want one chance?
Perhaps an alternative option: 1 key level above all timed becomes resil
if you have all 15, then 16 would be resil, but failing a 17 would drop by 1. This means that you have more opportunities to gain io, but as you get closer to timing all keys at one level, you need just a bit of luck to be able to reroll to those last keys needed.
I think with this middle ground (1 level up from all timed) allows more opportunity to push your limits, while also preventing you from banging your head against a key far higher than the rest of what you have timed. This provides a balanced between regulating your growth but giving you better opportunities to push limits.
As a quick comment: if u have a resil key, how significantly does it change your willingness to invite lower io players? I personally still notice quite a bit of pickiness. I try to invite whoever, because I want to help, but the problem is, I gain nothing for helping.
The two options become, be picky building groups even on resil keys so you can get back to a chance of gaining io, or, allow one of the first two ideas, so that Potentially EVERYONE has a chance to gain io.
Resil should exist for any key level, not just above twelve.
all pros and cons of the current resil system (or these ideas) should apply for everyone. I don’t see why lower levels keys should not also have this luxury
Honestly, I haven’t read everything. I just think that Resilient Keys were a good addition, but I also think keys shouldn’t deplete at all, even without it.
I like your idea. Making it +1 would be a good compromise with no downside besides potentially groups pulling 30 mobs every first pull. But I still think this would be fine and agree. Maybe it would make pugging better because you know in the first pull if the group can succeed or not (if they can do a 30 mob pull they can definitely do the rest of the key).
I have the radical idea that, once you time all 12s, you should no longer need a keystone to start a 12+ dungeon, and they work like Delves from now on. You can enter any dungeon and start any level 12-X (X is one higher than the highest you ever timed) with your group. Essentially, removal of the keystone system once you have timed all 12 keys. However you keep a key if you want to run 11s or lower for vault keys.
People who have timed all 12 keys have already done the job well enough. The highest reward comes from even untimed 10s, which is hilarious but fine. 13+ is only for pushing so it’s fine if people are actually pushing their limits, which includes a lot of failing.
Note that I’m not arguing for keys below 12 to not de-level in this system upgrade. Everything below all 12s timed remains the same.
And there should still be a fail condition. Having a +1 on your resil range takes that away.
Dead zones exist. Part of why completing a t11 delve gives you a quest to push into m+ 2
Because youre trying to remove any punishment for failure. Pushing to a 10 for max rewards and never dropping below max reward range and wasting peoples time because youre bricking a run because you dont belong there and rinse and repeating until you get a group to carry you through run is just a degenerate design.
Fail conditions should exist in reward range
2-10s are already brutal. We dont need to fast track it
You literally have to time the key to go up in levels, no failure there
The fall condition is not timing the key, needing to rerun, no loot, no io. Literally all the same things.
I’m sorry I might need this one explained a bit more.
Honestly I’m ok with this perspective, those keys aren’t even a struggle and gear progression offers enough of a solution for players in that range to have an easier time for their goals within that range
What do you mean by fail condition? I’m thinking you mean a condition that would lead to failure (since this is 13+, this means not beating the timer) like lack of healing, too many deaths, lack of damage, not enough interrupts, and so on.
If you mean, they should have some punishment for failing, I respectfully disagree that a person should have to be punished for failing their 14 by going back and doing a 13 which they already proved they are better than by timing all 13s. You are already punished with wasted time, wasted consumables, and a repair bill. That is the same punishment as failing to kill a mythic raid boss.
People use the riskiest strats they copied off the website regardless of the success rate of those strats because it’s seen as meta.
They go into key, do pull 1. Group wipes, and go next.
To freely incentivize more of this? nah.
People aren’t playing the dungeon, nor catering to the group’s abilities, just mimicing what they see someone else did. Those people should fail to climb.
But how does that affect you? Why are you unhappy that people might want to do crazy pulls?
Also a group that mimic a run without knowing the intentions of it’s design will never time a key, even resil. And if they do time, then it’s because they meet the expectations of performance. With the resil ideas, they’ll likely still do that, just with more time between afternoons in keys that give io.
Tank picks path, everyone else is just along for the ride. It’s not worth teaching tanks that their route sucks. They will learn by experience (at some point) or keep failing until they do.
Or maybe they bruteforce their way through eventually.
Plus side? contemplating tanking because the ones I see don’t do it right.
I rush to 6s to get resil 6 so im now forever in hero track land and now it doesn’t matter if i ever time another key again or not because ill never drop below a 6.
2-5 range is now a barren wasteland. A dead zone. No one in those ranges even thoubh that 615 mage doing 500k overall hasnt timed a 6 key in his last 7 runs and should be in that range.
Key degradiation. What happens when the condition of failing to time a run happens.
If ive only timed 12s, wheres the fear of failing a 13 at? There is none because my 13 keys will never deplete even though ive never timed one. It doesnt make sense.
Eh, beating it one time doesnt mean youre better than that range.
Ive failed 10s after having all 11s timed.
Ive completed all 12s. Im rewarded for that. Why should my 13s be rewarded for only completing 12s?
It sounds like you just don’t want to elaborate or back your perspective.
Oh I see your perspective is basen on reward range. Sure maybe there are enough reasons for 0-111 to stay as is. Past 12’s it’s purely comprised of players that enjoy the challenge.