M+ didn’t exist back then, so we should remove it, right?
So, you’re actually pissed because you didn’t vet your pugs well enough and it led to disappointment.
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Its not.
This person wants free stuff for doing little to nothing
At the time, Heroic was the CE. LK Heroic was almost deemed unbeatable.
Lei Shen was WILD hard. They actually gave CE to beating it on heroic. World first guilds and the big wipe counts maybe diminished by some (you for instance) but if you ask all those established raiders of that time they will tell you it was absolutely hard.
But This isnt a discussion on what raid was more difficult.
This is a discussion about removing vault and fixing Mythic plus/+ systems to help bring the game back to where it was, and where it was historically was in a better spot. Numbers don’t lie
I wouldn’t see an issue compared to the upside… Raids were much better being developers placed all total creative focus on raids. Thats why heroic dungeons were linear and blah being most of the focus and resources were given to raids and tier set bonus ideas.
Boss design, raid layout, storyline, everything surrounding the raid and lore was way better. The quest and grind to get shadowmourne was amazing. Ulduar and Throne of Thunder Raids were amazing.
WoW as a company has been trying to chase the next ulduar for almost 15 years. In my opinion the reason for it is being they have been stretching resources and using the same devs for everything. With Microsoft maybe now they can have money to hire a separate team just for raids and bring back the old school lore dudes. Chris is back so its optimistic.
The last good raid with the proper aura of a raid was Castle Nathria. That was the ONLY thing good about Shadowlands. Everything outside of that raid was horrible.
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My friend, this debate is a waste of time here, the people arguing with you are the exact type of gamer Blizzard has attracted over the years with their current “lets turn our MMO into a seasonal Diablo clone”.
If you want to play a more classic MMO, there are better options.
Classic WoW, Lotro, Gw2, FF14, ESO just to name a few. Heck, I’d throw OSRS into the mix too, super fun old school MMO that has a huge player base.
Retail WoW is fun for like a month into a new expansion, that is about it.
The post launch content patches aren’t enough to keep people interested, because the only real content they’re adding that is new is the raid.
I dunno why people still bring up sub numbers when the Classic versions pulled in and retained less players than retail.
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This is the sad reality. Yes I have to agree. When I came off my 7 year break I felt the change. It didn’t feel like the WoW I left it. Its trash now. The Current player mentality is in a very bad space.
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This person is a ce raider and plays the game as designed.
Incorrect. The current raiding difficulty isn’t even comparable. Proven by the fact you’re literally hardstuck at the first boss that has any mechanics.
Coming from someone that can’t even kill brood with an 18% buff and over gearing it isn’t credible at all.
End of the day your suggestion is terrible and you don’t have a basic clue because you don’t even play the game at high end.
The current numbers are the best they have been in years. The game is likely. Ever going to go back to wrath numbers because the genre isn’t popular anymore and people grew up.
Your suggestion further making mplus more favored hurt the game.
Get a clue.
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Numbers from Wrath (original Wrath) Alone trump Shadowlands and dragonflight combined.
Hmm, where can I find published data from Blizzard that backs this up?
It’s honestly just a common sense situation. We had less options, WoW was the new, big thing.
I don’t know why you would think millions of people would resub if they made WoW less rewarding when the majority seem to think it’s currently not rewarding enough.
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Difficulty =/= Time
Wanting time locks on gear just “because” is stupid. I get why its a thing for raids because the way raids are currently designed the first few mythic bosses are trivial and would be farmed rapidly over and over. That argument doesnt hold up for mythic plus.
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Your what is wrong with the game. Elitist junk spew. Leave my vault alone. It is not handouts when your doing the work to open them up. Your just wrong and a bitter penny. You DO you and leave me out of your spew.
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Heyheyhey, d4 actually has a lot more sources of decent loot compared to wow lol. Even hell tides are satisfying I find.
Actually it does as mplus is spammable. Lower track gear is the trade off for being spammed.
Gearing already favors mplus.
You lost me there.
Great Vault is a bonus roll. It benefits ALL levels of gameplay as a bonus roll.
Go back to Classic.
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I mean…no but are we actually going to talk like gearing In Vanilla/BC/Wotlk was hard?
Hell we had a whole raid for catch up gear in vanilla. The gearing system in retail is fine. If you remove M+ you are effectively killing what wow has left. As much as you might hate it M+ is what keeps retail wow alive. Not the raids not the PvP and also RWF brings a lot of attention to the game. No one can deny that.
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it’s not a mobile game. It shouldn’t have login bonuses. I agree to remover great vault. Game was at peak popularity when there was no vault.
How is great vault a log in bonus?
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The Vault isn’t a login bonus. 
What a nonsensical comment.
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