Removed Content

Honestly, I’m more likely to think “cool thing, how do you get- oh you can’t get it anymore /:” when I see some cool appearance nowadays, but I’ll admit that’s a very subjective thing. x)

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If nobody is going to check achievement dates, why do we care about the prestige then, if nobody cares about it and it doesn’t matter. This seems contradictory, can’t have it both ways.

Why are we holding cool content and excitement from players for prestige that nobody cares about checking?

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If the cosmetic is no longer obtainable, the “achievement date” is an implicit part of just seeing the cosmetic itself. Having to go through achievements to check the date is an extra step that nobody actually does. For example you don’t have to check the achievement date on a Hall of Fame, Realm First, CM Realm Fastest, R1 Gladiator or 0.1% M+ title.

And it’s not about keeping content from people, just the cosmetic rewards that people earned by doing it at a specific point in time.

So it’s indeed an ego bloat?

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If you want to call it that, sure. It’s aspirational gameplay and something that visually marks you as having done/achieved something special at a specific point in time. It’s an MMO, developing your character’s story and commemorating special events in the game’s history (not lore, the videogame itself) are important parts of that. Letting people come later and get the same cosmetic things indisputably cheapens that.

But, let’s say for argument’s sake they replicate the difficulty level of the content, does it matter skill-wise you did it in 2015 or 2023?

This is obviously with something like challenge mode in mind.

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Even if they managed to get the in game difficulty to be identical (completely impossible), the amount of information etc available still makes it easier. Just look at mage tower. It’s “in game harder” than the one most people did in Legion (because you can’t outgear it anymore), but it’s still not the same and shouldn’t reward the same cosmetics (and it doesn’t).

I’d also rather see new cosmetics from relaunched CMs or whatever in general, because that adds to the game rather than just taking something people already earned and cheapening it.

Knowledge and execution are far from each other, as surely you know. The days where we were in awe of someone’s mount or transmog are long gone, it is replaced with a disappointment that you can’t get it anymore, and not because you lack the skill, but because you weren’t there at the right place at the right time.

I’ve been there since vanilla, I no longer hold any attachment to rewards I got throughout the time, I just have fond memories :slight_smile:

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Its the opposite of aspirational gameplay, unless the “aspiration” is “i wish i owned a time machine”

What cheapens the game is having content available to acquire and then removing it for arbitrary reasons. Its subtracting from the game, not adding to it.

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Again, I agree regarding content (mage tower, CMs etc), but cosmetics are not content, they’re a reward from content and making a very very very minor number of those unobtainable is good. The aspiration is “if I want this thing, I need to push myself now otherwise it’s gone”. You can’t just go back and 1shot a boss with a 1000% damage amp later on to get it.

They are, but more knowledge still changes the actual difficulty.
If they actually have something impressive from the past, that’s still a cool thing to see for me. Obviously mythic raid mounts (for example) don’t really have that, because anybody can just go farm them later (or in the case of this expansion, Blizzard just straight up puts them into every difficulty immediately). Same goes for mythic raid transmogs, except for the sparkles from this expansion which you can barely see. But something like an old R1 Gladiator mount? That’s cool. Even a 0.1% M+ title is cool.

And yes, sometimes I’m disappointed in myself that I only got the monk CM set or that I only got very few Elite PvP sets. Then I find a different cool looking set and maybe try a bit harder to get the current Elite PvP set (or mage tower appearances back in Legion)

For many many many people, the reward IS the content. Content is the vehicle, reward is the motivator for the action. Without the reward, people are inactive. MMO design 101 is that more people doing the activity the better, you want to encourage as many people to participate in the content as possible. Its the same philosophy why they added M+, weekly quests to do timewalking dungeons, bonus tokens from lfr healer queues, to bring raiders into other parts of the game.

It reduces people feeling like they have nothing to do, often activities are available, but they dont feel its “worth” their time to explore, its an unknown, they wont know its fun until they’ve tried it. The reward is the carrot on the stick to get them over the indecision paralysis and get them to try new stuff in the first place.

The answer to “how can i get that thing, it looks cool i want it!” should always have an answer, anytime it doesn’t is simply a failing where a person’s potential excitement and joy is robbed of them before it has a chance to flourish.

If old content is too easy, and newest content is the hardest, it should only make sense that ranking up to qualify for an elite set NOW in the present should enable you to get the elite pvp sets of the past, as the hardest time to rank up against players with the most established knowledge over time etc. is now.

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Yes, so we need more limited time rewards to encourage people to do content now, rather than being like “eh I’ll just go 1shot it with a 10000% damage amplifier in 2 years”. There’s plenty of participation in transmog farming in old content already, it’s the harder content that needs encouraging.

It’s completely fine for that answer to be “you can’t anymore” for a few select cosmetics. Yeah, sometimes I feel bad about only having 1 CM set and very few Elite PvP ones. Then I get over it because I realize that I simply did not earn those things, and use some other cool set I do have or work towards getting one of the current things that’s going to go away.

No, because again, it’s not just about difficulty. It’s about recognizing cool achievements at a specific moment in time. Getting Elite in PvP in a specific season/meta, because it means you played better than other people and figured out said meta. Maybe you played a class that was weak at the time and still managed it. Getting realm first whatever because it means you beat out the competition at that moment in time.

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The argument about knowledge is completely flawed, only a tiny percentage of the playerbase completes something blind, be it challenge mode, mage tower of mythic bosses, Majortity follows a guide, and or uses Bigwigs or Deadly Bossmods… nowadays its all riddled with weakauras and you cant make me believe that the majority makes their own auras.

Even if something is current content, they’ll still use someone elses “knowledge”.

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And more time still allows for more knowledge to be generated. It’s not like we’re playing the RWF strats for bosses on mythic necessarily. They come up with “good enough” strats, those then get refined over time by other guilds. Honestly’s 3 tank Kil’jaeden in Legion, or this tier P3 Sark’s standard strat was refined by a guild that’s usually just barely HoF (Pure-Turalyon). It’s not just about blind vs not blind.

You’re still talking about a small portion of the player base that actually ‘‘refines’’ tactics and doesn’t just rely on addons, weak auras and guides.

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It’s possible that making more stuff temporarily available could boost the amount of people playing at that specific time. Even if it’s terribly anti-consumer, it would most likely work. But in the long term, it becomes a one-and-done matter, so anyone who obtains the seasonal reward (or the parts they want) really have no incentive to keep going even if they want to.

By allowing old rewards to remain obtainable in similar ways to how they were at their time, you give optional goals to keep pursuing, and ultimately keep that type of content alive because (especially) a new player will have years and years of content they can try to climb towards. The way I see it, it allows that content to stay relevant in the long term.

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The incentive (after getting the rewards that got them to try it) would be that… it’s fun? If they don’t enjoy it after the “trial period” (where they’re getting extra cosmetics) and choose to not do it anymore, that’s a good thing.

Old content has tons of cosmetic rewards by default, it’s not like all of that would suddenly just stop. Multiple difficulties worth of raids, old non-Elite PvP sets for Marks of Honor. It’s as relevant as it needs to be. You just make a few specific rewards unobtainable because there is no way to keep it “similar” to doing it while current.

If they do more stuff like the rereleased mage tower where you get scaled down (or up) and the difficulty is mostly constant regardless of what expansion it’s in, that should come with new cosmetics for that “evergreen” version of the content.

I stated this above 2 months ago when this thread first appeared, but I feel like it needs to be re-iterated down here due to the new conversations occuring:

I honestly think that nothing is off limits to being able to be re-accomplished and rewarded to players. Bogarting, or hiding behind a locked wall thats thrice locked, just to give players that “Got it when it was current” more ego boosting is never a good reason. I know that I got certain things back when they were current, or as some like to put it “harder to achieve” and they’ve started to give those items away to players again. Do I feel diminished? Do I feel like that item is no longer cool? No. I still know personnally, and sometimes have achievements from the time, that I did them back in the day. Something cool shouldn’t be locked away for all time simply because I either didn’t do the content, or was never there to actually live it.

Let players get every item that is in game. If its old content that can be done “easily” now a days, then more power to those players. Does it diminish the “coolness” of that item? No. Does it make it so you can’t just show off “Lol, look at what you’ll never be able to get ever regardless of how much time(money) you spend playing this game.” Yes, it sure does and good. It should be more like “Look at what I spent time getting, and you can go get it too if you wish to spend the time and go to certain places to get it.”

Heck, I remember spending ungodly amounts of gold and time doing quests to get the Warlock Mounts. They’re now given freely. Did that diminish the fact that I got them back in the day? Nope. Did it make them any less cool? Nope.

With time, difficulty within a game ebbs and flows. What was difficult yesterday may not be difficult today, or what was easy yesterday may not be easy today. Using “difficulty” as the measure behind locking some of these doors is shallow, and a weak argument. The more we lock things behind doors, the more new players won’t want to do certain things or possibly quit because of all the stupid “exclusivity”. A new player should have every opportunity to get everything I’ve collected since playing in Classic to now, regardless of “Changes in difficulty” or “amassed knowledge”. None of that matters to giving players more agency and availability to have items within the game.

As I said above, Nothing should be able to diminish your thoughts on an item, mount, transmog. With time more people will gain it. With time it may become more “easy” to do. Does that diminish your accomplishment of getting it when it was “current” or “harder”? No. At least, it shouldn’t. If that was the case and the majority of the playerbase felt that they’re previous things were now “lessened”, they would have started pulling the Destiny™ method and start removing all the old content. Which is a horrible idea, like beyond reprehensible

In short, I agree that things removed from this game, or currently thrice locked behind “exclusitivity” doors should be brought back and opened up for every player to be able to get. (heck, they’re already starting this train by bringing back things from the TCG. So why stop there?)

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Yes it does diminish the coolness if everybody can get it, and being able to show off things you’ve done is important in an MMO. That’s why people are asking for things like player housing where they can show off things they’ve done/acquired.

It definitely does diminish the cosmetic’s ability to communicate that you did something cool or participated in a specific moment.

Removing content and removing cosmetics are very different things.

Because there’s a difference between having done something impressive in-game or having participated in a specific moment in the game’s history vs spending real money. I also think it’s silly that they’re giving out the TCG things to everybody, but at least those were never tied to anything you did in-game.

You can still very easily show that you’ve done something, just as that new player would be able to show they also did it. What are you loosing? Nothing. You still have the item, you still know you got it “back in the day”. You still, most likely, have the achievement stating the same thing of “back in the day.” Nothing diminished. Nothing taken from you. Something “given” to the new player. - What’s the issue?

Your perception of “Diminishing” should not hold this game back from giving to the greater audience. This game has been out for 19 years. In that time, the kids that started playing are now adults and Kids that are now playing were born into a world where World of Warcraft was already a thing. This perception is now “diminishing” their game play, as things they possibly were even too young to play a video game or possibly not even born for are forever out of their reach. Yet still visible due to the long-term veterans.

To put it in perspective, There are most likely players who were born when Wrath of the Lich King launched in 2008. They are now 15. Which means they never experienced that expansion in its “live time”, Cataclysm (launched in 2010) was most likely never experienced in it’s “live time”, Mists of pandaria (launched in 2012) was most likely never experienced in its “live time”, and Warlords of Draenor (launched in 2014) was most likely never experienced in its “Live time” by this player who was born in 2008. Legion (launched in 2016) has a chance since this player would be 8 years old by this point.

Having the new players be able to get all items within the game does nothing to the player who already had them. Absolutely nothing. Again, Nothing is being taken away from you except for a perception of “exclusivity” and everything is being “given” to the new player.

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