I get what you’re trying to say but I just don’t agree. Void form is too binary. It’s either too good and you have everyone pushing content using spriest (see legion) or you have it like it was at the beginning of bfa, complete unrewarding drudgery. Current state means nothing because of how inflated everything is due to essences and corruptions.
It basically boils down to spriest works way harder to do stuff that every other spec can do with little to no effort.
We don’t want a reward for the mechanic if the mechanic means we have to take 40 secs to do what others classes can do instantly…WE DON’T WANT A RAMP-UP MECHANIC…
Personally i don’t like to only do long raid fights. M+ ,world quest, visions and leveling are extra hard for Spriest because of the ramp-up. And now… at the end of the expansion, even with good gear and good corruptions and essences, i can’t even rush a regular mythic dungeon, yeah i can do it, slowly but no rush it like all other classes, because the moment i group up all the adds i have to take dmg for too much time that i will always die… on the other hand a tank spec can easily group them and kill them even faster… and with less gear…
That’s something i care, not to be important but wanted to write it here.
Ramp-Up Mechanic From Voidform must go or we will suffer next expansion until last months of it.
There is no resource managment. With or without Insanity, you’d press your buttons the exact same way.
There is virtually only one button with a significant impact on Voidform, and that is Lucid Dreams major. A button you get to press every two minutes, on a rather simplistic criteria of “use at x stacks of Voidform”.
Voidform ultimately can only have one reward: damage.
That reward has to be balanced against all other classes. So you get the same damage for a mechanic that is fundamentally more susceptible to encounter RNG, and is worse in short-duration content due to time-requirement.
You get the same reward as everyone else, just in a lot less content, while (in some cases) you are doing more work. People generally don’t like tht.
That’s just wrong. BfA tried to fix Legion’s major flaw: Shadow was absolute garbage in any content outside of raiding due to the long ramp-up.
Priest only has one DPS spec. That dps spec has to function at least decently in a large variety of content. As the ramp-up is the primary reason shadow did not function in a lot of content, that was changed. Though that change meant that what made Voidform fun was removed.
There is a fundamental difference between the capabilities required by the sole priest dps spec and the capabilities Voidform has.
Don’t worry, anyone who is anti-voidform will attack you, your character as a human being and call you a lier and anything else they can to make you not exist like the rest of us.
and they wonder why people ‘like us’ dont post here every damn day
that said, I appreciate you sticking your neck out and all the abuse you are about to get doing so.
And the arguments always go begins the same way:
Person that likes Voidform: It’s a unique resource managment system no other class has. The mini-game of reaching high stacks is fun.
Person that dislikes Voidform: Voidforms has no impact on how you press your buttons. Just by following the simple basic priority list of your three buttons you achieve your high-score.
Person that likes Voidform: i like trains…
No person that likes Voidform has ever been able to counter that point.
To be honest, on paper i also like the Voidform concept. But the implementation in game is so flawed that i can only hate it. And looking at Druid’s Venthyr covenant ability, i’d argue there are far simpler designs that can just as easily represent the Voidform concept.
Shouldn’t something that is really only useful in raids and mythic keys, by design, be a talent? Edge of Insanity, in its original form, proved pretty conclusively that we were better off in pvp without it. Those 12 stack voidforms aren’t useful or fun in open world questing. Doesn’t have much impact in regular instancing. I just don’t get why something that has such a negative impact on most gameplay is the core of a spec. Imagine if fire mage took 30 seconds of weakness to generate 10 seconds of those huge pyroblasts, but they weren’t instant. Would that fly?
If its staying (and I think it is) make it a talent or give us insanity generation out of combat.
Just wanted to add that as well as disliking the mechanics of void form and the incentive/reward for playing it well (there are none), I also dislike the “void” aesthetics. I started playing shadow priest because I thought the dark/shadow magic was cool. Now I’m a weird anime monster with tentacles sticking out of me.
Can’t counter fact.
What can be countered is that having control over which buttons you press is a necessary thing for any dps spec to have. Shadow’s complexity is not in the decision making of which buttons to press, but instead of the speed at which you press them and if you do or not.
Now I do not believe for that to be fundamentally flawed design provided the speed at which I execute my rotation is fast enough to add that complexity to the rotation.
I also argue the two are mutually exclusive. You cannot have a fast enough rotation to always keep your head on a swivel and a rotation that allows you to make decisions in how you execute it. In order for decision to exist the rotation must be slow and deliberate enough to provide the player enough time to make that decision.
So what would you rather have, speed or control? 'Cause you can’t have your cake and eat it too.
Cause you can’t have your cake and eat it too.
I mean we could. There is a really simple solution.
Make Voidpriest its own spec, so anyone who likes it can keep it.
Then restore Shadowpriest to a different system, like Shadow Orbs.
There is precedent for this. They did this when they split Bearcat for having two conflicting identities.
Shadow doesn’t have two conflicting identities though. It has one singular clear identity in insanity.
Now I can’t really attest to this since I did not involve myself with Shadow until Legion, but I am under the impression that the Shadow Orbs version of Shadow was too similar to Affliction which was the reason for the identity shift. And for that reason I would not expect it to ever be reverted.
Shadow has tons of identities:
The Void is the newest identity they have slapped onto us. Shadowpriests were psychic vampires before WoW existed (in Warcraft). We were psychic vampires, in WoW, from Vanilla until Legion: 14 years. We had tentacles in Pandaria and Draenor long before the Legion redesign.
You only know us from after the rework, but we have had an identity and history and culture long before Voidform: and blizzard is destroying that.
Imagine if tomorrow, Blizzard announces they are going to rework Fire Mages to instead focus on doing Frost damage, with a very different playstyle. And then a couple years later - here you are arguing that Fire mages have a very clear identity, and it’s Frost damage. That’s what this argument feels like for the rest of us.
Shadow got Shadow Orbs in Cataclysm (Troll Priests had them from Vanilla -> Cataclysm), the system was improved in Pandaria and then Draenor, and then that system was taken from us and given to Affliction: while simultaneously Shadow was replaced with Void.
So it’s not correct to say we were too similar to Affliction - we were that thing 3 expansions before they got our builder/spender model.
Also, it’s a stretch - there’s some big differences between Affliction today and Shadow Orbs. I get why people recognize the 5-point build/spend model, and DOTs, but that’s the extent of the similarity.
I would then argue that Shadow did not have a clear enough identity, as evidenced by your list, before Voidform was introduced, and the change in Legion was an attempt to make a concrete and distinct one.
‘Psychic Vampire Priest’ was a lot, I agree. But I don’t think that made our identity unclear, I think it made us interesting. We all knew who we were and liked it.
That’s why - years later - there is still this much anger and resentment: part of it is Voidform’s design issues, but part of is that some people just don’t like the Void/Insane/Old God themes.
This identity is definitely not more concrete and distinct. It’s more complicated and less distinct.
Right now we’re Priests, who are stoic, even-tempered practitioners of a faith. Except we’re also insane, bargaining with old gods.
Just look at how conflicted our spell identities still are:
We have Void spells: Void Bolt, Shadow Word: Void(what even is this?), Void Eruption, Voidform
= so we’re getting this power from the old gods?
We have Mind/Psychic spells: Mind Blast, Mind Vision, Mind Bomb, Mind Control, Mind Flay, Mind Sear, Psychic Scream, Psychic Horror
= so we’re still psychics?
We have Shadow magic spells: Fade, Dispersion, Shadowmend, Shadowfiend, Shadowform, Shadowy Apparitions, Shadow Crash, Shadow Word: Death
= so we’re still also using Shadow magic, not just Void magic?
We have Holy spells: Dispel Magic, Leap of Faith, Mass Dispel, Purify Disease, Shackle Undead, Flash Heal (SL), Prayer of Mending (SL)
= so we’re still not cut off from Holy magic, despite our Void connection?
We also still have Power Words: Fortitude, Shield, Pain, Void, Death
= So we’re still telepathic?
We have Vampire spells: Vampiric Touch, Vampiric Embrace, San’Layn
= So we’re still vampires?
We lost none of our prior identities in the rework, it’s all still here. All they did was make it even more complicated by adding more.
When I think of spec identity I’m more concerned about the gameplay fantasy instead of the abilities I have access to. I think it is undeniable that the current fantasy of going insane (Shadow’s identity) is captured completely through the gameplay of Voidform.
Can the same be said for Shadow’s gameplay prior to Legion capturing the identity of being a “Psychic Vampire” as you call it. Maybe it’s not too far off considering the main ability was Devouring Plague which healed you I believe.
The question is then, is that fantasy 1) compelling enough and 2) distinct enough from other specs? From my two recent posts above I would argue no.
That makes no sense, without ability names you wouldn’t have a defined gameplay fantasy. Our resource is called “Insanity” so you are attributing the gameplay experience as being an accurate portrayal of going insane: which is a circular argument at best.
It sort of resembles the frantic energy of a bipolar person during a manic episode - but that’s a stretch from ‘insanity’. You’re still narrowing in on one spell name and defining your gameplay fantasy from your subjective interpretation of one word.
WoW Classses are not based on specific characters, so they have no defined fantasy except what is given to us through our spells. The possible exception here is Death Knights and Demon Hunters - which is an “I want to be Arthas/Illidan” fantasy. All other classes are open to subjective interpretation by the players, given only their spell names to define the class fantasy.
Regarding if ‘Psychic Vampire Priest’ was a compelling enough fantasy, clearly it is - some of us still play Spriest for that fantasy which is still embedded in the spec.
Regarding if it is distinct enough from other specs, please point me to the spec that overlapped with Psychic Vampire Priest. Disc as Psychic Masochist Priest? Holy as Psychic Beneficent Priest? Because it’s probably not “Laser Chicken”, “Overzealous Crusader”, or “Hot Topic Wizard”.
Shadow Priest is not even that good for mythic keys lol, it’s only when you get to really high keys like +20 where they start to shine because fights last long enough for them to be able to get their damage rolling. In other words, Shadow Priest is garbage for everything that is not raiding and keys above +20 because of voidform. #removevoidform
Also just further on the issue of Voidform’s gameplay fantasy being inaccurate:
You accumulate 100 “Insanity” outside of Voidform, as though being insane was a good thing.
Then you lose “Insanity” during Voidform, and try to stay Insane as long as possible - BUT YOU CAN’T! No matter how hard you try to … stay insane… you regain your sanity eventually.
If anything, this is the complete opposite of what being insane is like. Insanity is, by any definition, a debilitating mental disorder. It’s not a resource, it’s not desirable, it’s not empowering.
You should slowly, steadily, accumulate Insanity by casting your spells, and when you become insane, it should bear a terrible consequence immediately, and for the rest of the fight. That would be an accurate portrayal of insanity (a mental disorder) in a game design system (Voidform).
Here are the mechanics/abilities that can be used to impact Voidform Duration:
Dispersion
Void Torrent
Void Bolt (extending SW:P & VT)
Shadowfiend
Memory of Lucid Dreams
This isn’t to mention the biggest difference in Voidform gameplay - and the core of what makes Voidform fun - getting a massive amount of haste so the speed of play increases.
I think the above is evidence enough that you’re oversimplifying the gameplay differences and resource management of being in Voidform.
How much damage a class does/doesn’t do has nothing to do with how entertaining the gameplay is.
Voidform’s reward is in its ever increasing fast-paced gameplay. The longer you are in Voidform the more frenetic and exciting things become. Yes, more haste does result in more damage but that is not the goal, it’s a byproduct.
I also agree balance is important and I agree the gameplay of Voidform has a higher difficulty than, for example, Beast Master Hunter. That additional difficulty should be represented by additional rewards: whether that be by virtue of being more fun or doing more damage.
Damage is a thing, but it’s absolutely not everything.
The major flaw in Legion that BfA addressed was that the best Shadow Priest players could keep Voidform up a ridiculous amount of time and were trivializing content.
Yes, ramp-up time was - and still is - an issue in non-raid content. Yes, Shadow Priests should be effective in those other forms of content. However, I like that not every class is equal at doing every kind of content - that would be boring. Class balancing does not mean class equality. That is, of course, a matter of opinion.
There are thousands of YouTube videos that say otherwise.
The funny part about this statement is that the only place you will see your idea of voidform’s reward (ever increasing fast paced gameplay) is on a raid boss or in a higher key m+. And if you DON’T bring high damage there, you arent getting in. So I really don’t understand your point.
This always makes me sad and makes me hesitant to play certain classes.
I still remember being disdained as a warlock in early legion.