Despitebeing saying this is total projection, btw 
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If that’s where your focus is I can’t tell you that you’re wrong. I can just tell you there are other approaches with less intense focus or a different focus entirely and there’s no point in comparing them.
Again, if you want to look at it strictly from an efficiency angle I cant tell you that a ret paladin is going to be better for your raid than another pure dps class. Only that what constitutes “a better raid” is entirely open to interpretation so certain specs shouldn’t be automatically excommunicated on the grounds they don’t fit the efficiency model.
They always resort to blaming you for the thing they’re guilty of when they’re out of ammo. Warriors are OP on a spreadsheet. Someone call the cops.
Fair enough. I suppose I only raid to get loot as quickly and the least miserably as possible so…in a way you could say my view is narrow.
Same here. Couldn’t give one single about the raid or difficulty. I’m just trying to get the purps so I can leave then back to whatever business as usual
Further proof you entered this discussion in Bad Faith.
You’ve conceded my point already.
It’s a preference. I would never knock you for it unless you tried to club me over the head with it, as is the case with most - if its what’s best for them then it must be the best for everyone - and I don’t really fault them completely as there is something to be said for efficiency in a raid.
If I was in a guild for the expressed purpose of simulating an old school raid with prot warriors, the threat mechanic (true story btw) and so on I probably wouldn’t be looking for the same caliber/mindset of a player that you would and I wouldnt look at individual player efficiency or raid comp with the same scrutiny - or rather Id scrutinize it based on what the goals were and how the raid was built and why - I’m certainly not going to hold an old school laissez-faire raid to the same standard as you do your raid.
You engaged me and just automatically assumed I should agree with your assertion/assumption that warriors are a problem. That’s not earnest discussion or arguing in good faith.
I tried to be nice about it and even gave you some due (as in, you’re not totally coming in out of left field with your aforementioned assertion) but Im still entitled to my opinion that warriors are fine and nothing needs to change.
My reasons for this have nothing to do with warriors so whatever specious logic you think gives your opinion leverage over mine doesn’t exist. You just really dont like that warriors aren’t being taxed now like they werent 20 years ago and Im against changing the game more than necessary.
Then the rest of the argument is you trying to take away my entitlement to my opinion on the grounds you feel really, really entitled to yours.
Par for the course on any contentious topic really. Im right and your wrong even though right and wrong are irrelevant abstractions that dont got jack to do with the discussion.
That was never my stance. Warriors themselves aren’t the problem, but rather the inconsistency in design. We’ve already been through this plenty:
Warriors are hybrids.
They are exempted from Hybrid Tax.
That exemption is a design flaw.
The above points are not opinions. Your opinion is that the flaw shouldn’t be fixed. Mine is that it should.
Bruh, I kinda like the sound of that actually.
Warriors, according to you, are the embodiment of the inconsistent design and they’re the only example of it so I think its safe for me to conclude that your assertion that they are the only hybrids not being taxed is you thinking warriors are a problem.
Warriors are an exception to that rule. They also have 3 melee specs which would put them in line with Blizzards definition of a pure class as well yet that doesn’t get acknowledged for some reason. They are neither hybrid or pure or you could say they are both. Either way they are in a category all by themselves which would mean they aren’t subject to the tax or dont need to be and Im fine with that seeing as in all the old dev posts posted here they never put warriors in either category - you’re doing that, however many years later.
Just like you can make a case theyre hybrids I can make a case they are not. Seeing as they are both or neither its opinion all the way around.
I don’t think its a flaw - more of a paradox. I think its a case where game/class design and immersive fantasy cant align themselves in a manner consistent with the rest of the classes. I also think its an old game and whatever perceived flaws of this nature that manifest themselves decades later don’t automatically arise with a need to correct them. It is what it is.
Other than that you are welcome to that opinion, I dont see it your way and there’s nothing that really says I need too.
So did I.
Apologies to those who have read this sob story before but my old nilla/tbc buddies/family and a host of acquaintances tried to recreate this after Classics launch and we just ended up gearing/attuning 2-3 raids worth of pre BiS folk for WB meta speed guilds until my buddy group got tired of it, gave up and quit.
Wrong. Warriors ignore the Hybrid Tax design philosophy. Other classes, while obeying the tax, were disproportionately affected by it.
Not by intentional design. Further, ‘melee’ has nothing to do with being a purebred class. The role(s) they are capable of performing is what designates hybrid/pure. The devs choice for tier sets, abilities, and talents all illustrate they were created to be the default tanking class.
You’ve done nothing of the sort.
You think this is a mistake or oversight. Its not. You would have a point if one of their dps specs was a ranged spec that was equal to or better than hunters.
They weren’t intentionally supposed to be a little better than rogues - and they weren’t in any official capacity until 15-16 years later in a rerelease of the game wherein people figured out that it was possible by not playing the game in the way it was intended to be played. Ex WB meta, no MT prot warriors, etc
They were intentionally not taxed because they are not a true hybrid and this was revealed in all the dev quotes posted about what a hybrid is and what a pure class is and where every single class was mentioned and categorized except…you guessed it - warriors.
So now rogues are not a pure class. Sure, just make it up as you go along.
There is a class that is above this rule…you guessed it - warriors.
Mission accomplished for all of vanillas run. Prot warriors weren’t the default raid tanking spec for Classic though. Its as if you’re not taking everything into account here like I accused you of doing. Who woulda thunk that a class with three melee specs with two of them being melee dps specs would be good at melee dps? Again, not seeing the issue here. It makes sense to me.
I did, you just don’t let contradictory evidence get in the way of your pet peeves. All good, I dont sweat stuff like this.
Nonsense. Rogues are a pure dps class. Mages are too. Neither can use pets, tank, or heal. You are desperate to think melee/ranged adds relevance to the conversation. It doesn’t.
this was an unintentional result from flawed design
Nothing you’ve posted contradicts the claim that warriors are hybrids with a flawed design.
Mages, locks and rogues also have a good amount of utility abilities and rpg mechanics that impact how you interact with the world that warriors are completely lacking. Warrior dps supremacy is the rightful order of the universe.
Nonsense. Taunt is an RPG staple.
Mages can make food and water, create portals around the world, turn enemies into sheep. Warlocks can summon people around, get unique mounts, create soulstones and health stones, have unique pet effects etc. Rogues can stealth around changing completely how you interact with the game, pickpocket, use unique poisons, open locks on chests and doors. All of these classes have unique ways of interacting with the world while out of combat.
Warriors can hit things using moves with barely noticeable animation differences. They’re the only class whose mechanics are really focused completely on mob combat. At least in later expansions they get to hop around.
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Yes, because if they didn’t leave it alone the HUGE private server that shut down because of them making that promise wouldnt have had such a MASSIVE population sub to play on official. Nothing was EVER made of wow classic release UNTIL they sat down with the owner(s) of that server and the popular players at their own studio and came to the agreement. It was that alone that paid for it to be possible. Without that classic would have never been done. Period.
400+ replies of people arguing with people who interchange the definitions of “viable” and “meta”.
You can kill every boss from Lucifron to Kel’Thuzad with a druid or protadin tank, a handful of random healers and then 25+ boomkins/eles/enhance/ret/ferals/Spriests. Classic is NOT so tightly tuned that it requires “the perfect raid comp”.
If you want to speedrun, do it. But realize that speedrunning is a NICHE. Just like in all other video games. The majority of people are NOT speedrunning.
If youre a brainslave to metagaming, just SAY that.
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Warriors can also wear every armor type and wield every weapon in the game.
Their resource is Rage. Expecting their abilities to revolve around OOC play is your naivety. Rage itself has its own flawed design, but that is sourced from warriors’ flagrant violation of Hybrid Tax.
You said melee doesnt make you a pure class. Yet there’s an all melee pure dps class. That must have something to do with it I would think if they have three melee trees - wait a second - oh wow so do warriors - dont worry Im sure its a pure coincidence that warriors resemble both pure and hybrid classes and this doesn’t make them unique in any way and they are indeed hybrids because you have some half relevant data you can twist to fit your theory and huge freakin coincidences are no problem for you.
No it wasn’t. You just desperately need that to be the case. The game came out in late 2004 - warriors weren’t in full BiS with every WB + a chronoboon to protect their buffs and using DW legendary fury warriors to clear raids in 45 minutes by the end of '05.
Its a “problem” now because we have all the time in the world to gear out, do it stupid easy with a totally different meta and the game is going on 20 years old. You want contradictory evidence? See the OP. The prot warrior tank spec is practically obsolete - which means warriors arent really hybrids now either because 90% of them are just carbon copies of one another. Those things cancel each other out imo. Who cares if they have a tank spec if its practically a meme spec at this point? Not me.
I told you how many times now that this is the problem when you try to debate your opinions. There’s no winning this argument - which you don’t even have to begin with. If warriors were taxed in vanilla and not taxed in classic you would have a case. If they had a ranged spec as good or better than hunters you would have a case. All youre working with is a semi plausible theory you can’t justifiably force on anyone.
Literally everything I said refutes you and I can’t take any credit because everything you type is wrong.
And laughably, even if I agreed with you in totality I can still be against class changes to which you have no recourse - just a real sense of entitlement.