The problem with the timer isn’t that the timer is bad if you take M+ completely out of wow and view it as its own stand alone game.
The problem with the timer is that it has created this toxic stressful anxious go fast is always better hive mind mentality that has affected all group content regardless of the difficulty.
Hive mind go fast does not work in pick up groups used through the finder. It also doesn’t work in lower keys or normal raids consistently. It has the exact opposite result. Meaning wipes, over pulling, split mobs, split dps, etc. it’s inefficient, frustrating and results in a slower finish time even when there isn’t a timer.
The timer pushes hardcore players to go fast and work together towards a common goal in M+. Take those same players and drop them into LFR, Normal or a time walking on their alts or mains and when they que as tank they are hive minded to play fast with blinders on without any regard for anybody else but themselves even to their own detriment. This is why the timer is toxic. You have a mechanic that teaches everyone to just blast ahead with blinders on instead of teaching players to be efficient, and work together in a group setting.
Bring up an argument that doesnt include the “hive mind”. Hive mind is ironically also calling for the removal of the timer right now despite those people seemingly being the ones creating the problem. Why cant the “hive mind” change its mindset instead?
If anything the timer teachers players to do exactly the things you just said. Pulling multiple packs and managing their mechanics is nothing if not efficient, it also requires players work together to execute properly.
By contrast there’s nothing efficient about minimising risk at every turn which is the style of gameplay encouraged by death limits or removing failure conditions entirely.
It does, and it does not, that is the issue. There are those that will pull not just extra mobs, but mobs that have mechanics that can’t be handled, or more likely WON’T be handled, in a PuG.
Correct, but players working together in pugs, while not a 0 chance, can be quite low.
Another reason why quite a few of us want both a timer and a death count, to emphasize the idea we need to go fast, and take a few calculated risks but not to the point where our ability is not enough to do the pull because someone failed to take something like lack of interrupts (or the idea that most pugs don’t interrupt) into account.
Never underestimate the ability or desire of some people to be (insert favorite negative thing people can be here)
Most do, but there will always be at least that ONE that just wants to see the world burn.
The kind of person I am talking abotu would see that as not a failure, but as a success. and ones like me would rather not give people like that any sense of victory.
Sounds like you should be standing up for people that want to remove votekick from LFD dungeons.
Mythic plus already enables one person to dictate failure or success (more or less) and adding a death counter that boots people out of the instance doesn’t change that.
Unless if there’s a really large player base that wants to 4 man keys that go extra overtime?
If only the one who died 20 times did that was booted, this is what would happen, if everyone is, it would be more akin to a large player base that is the kind that wants to waste the time of 4 others by making keys always fail.
While you are right that M+ enabled 1 person to dictate success or failure, that just goes to show that even now some people “troll” keys, all your kick out if deaths hit a limit does is shift the ones that do or gives them another way to do such.
The only difficulty reduction I’d be looking for is the kind that reduces the difficulty of those they think they are all that when they are really all flat, like the rogue that thinks he is top DPS but is actually under the tank and/or healer, or the tank that thinks they can survive anything without the rest of the group doing what they can to help out.
As far as your idea, I’d just add one thing to it, and that is the one with the most deaths gets locked out of the LFG tool for an increasing amount of time. like a standard deserter debuff at first, but it happens again during the week, it doubles for each time.
After a long journey and timing the key, the group has found out they’ve been banned from LFG for 24 hours. They even tackled the dungeon under the 20 death limit!
and you just went obtuse, anyone with a reasonable ability to comprehend ideas should have made the connection of “deaths=20, everyone kicked out, highes deaths gets banned from LFG” Not to mention it wold just be ONE person that get banned,.
But I suppose i should have expected such from one who posts an idea that gives trolls more tools.
Even if a dual set-up was used, it would likely be more akin to being under both would reward close to how it is set up now (chest based on how much of both are left), being over one but under the other would be eithe ra 1 chest or that area where the key does not decrease, being over both wold be the depleation it is now,
Try ban the person with 5 or more, if all are equal no one gets banned. But this is also assuming it is 20 deaths total, that would be 4 apiece in a 5 man group,
I have been in groups where I don’t die at all, or where if I do, it is a wipe situation anyway, and I am the last one alive, but one of the DPS has racked up 3, 4, 5 or more deaths.
Oh, so it has to be hard enough that completion is not on the table after a certain amount of deaths.
Keep in mind, it would likely be hard, if not impossible, to actually progress without being under both timer and deaths in a dual system, and being over both only makes sense for it to be the depletion. It would be akin to needing a B+ or better to move on to the next supject levle but only managing a B or C, so you need to retake the class to work on weak spots.
I feel like anything involving a death limit would just create more issues. Right now, if someone dies on the first pull, or even if you wipe on the first pull, you can still time. I can easily see someone dying on pull 1, then group disbands, because I didn’t want to risk spending 30+ minutes for no reward.
Key depletions have to stay to create some level of risk involved in pushing higher.