This was introduced in Shadowlands via a covenant ability, and gameplay wise it was fine when it was an option among several to choose from. But now it’s baked into the class tree and is necessary for Frost’s non-BoS AoE damage, which is something that has never been the case for the spec. For M+ standing in DnD is clunky as it needs coordination from other players in the group, and even then its subject to weekly affixes (hello sanguine) and other mechanics. For raiding it is heavily dependent on fight design, where it might work for some bosses and defintely won’t for others. For PvP it’s a non-starter, as no one will ever stand in DnD for any meaningful length of time.
Switching to a Breath build is not the answer here, at least not for M+ with current tuning, as Breath requires even more coordination to be competitive (not great). This is something that I suspect will not happen for any meaningful percent of the population that plays this spec. And anyway, regardless of how Breath is tuned, it won’t affect the fact part of the spec’s AoE damage is tied to being static while in DnD, which is the main concern here.
If obliterate cleaving really is the way Blizzard wants to go forward with the spec, I’ve seen other suggestions on the forums that would alleviate some of these problems, like making the cleaving a buff you gain once you step into DnD and keep even when you move outside of it, or making the cleaving part of remoreseless winter instead of DnD. I won’t pretend to know if these are good alternatives, but I do know that for a large part of Frost’s history it wasn’t necessary to stay in DnD to do damage. This was mostly associated with Unholy (and arguably Blood), and even now Unholy has kind of moved away from it with the disease build. Don’t force us into this DnD based, coordination-heavy playstyle which has not been part of Frost’s design for a long time, if it ever was.
12 Likes
Good news! It’s still just an option. There are multiple ways around this as well.
I know it shocks when you’re forced out of your DnD, but it’s also one of the few interactive things Oblit FDK has going for it. Let’s not dumb it down any more by making everything passive
Just like that stupid trinket that turns you into an air elemental for stupid amounts of damage but roots you in place.
Same
Thing.
That’s my point: it’s not really an option. You have to take it to do any real damage. It’s akin to saying DnD is optional for Unholy’s wound build; sure, you don’t have to use it, but then it defeats the point of using those talents.
If you mean the option is using Breath, then on the surface, yes. But Breath is not really the way to go right now for uncoordinated groups. If Breath was tuned differently, the DnD cleave would not be nearly as big an issue.
I did because it is. Breath is a risk vs reward system.
Placing DnD is too. You’re not going to drop it right in the center of a 10 mob pull when 3 mobs are about to die and place sanguine puddles right in the middle of it.
DND should just move with the player, problem solved 
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I agree with removing it and buffing Frostscythe to fill the role that it was intended to do.
Its pretty much a forced option. Not cleaving with Obliterate is too much lost damage because a tank cant plant themselves for 5 seconds due to boredom or whatever other reason.
A lot of this could have been completely avoided but people wanted Obliterate to cleave more, thus Cleaving Strikes. I dont think Cleaving Strikes should even be a thing. There are too many things that are just making it a brain dead hit Obliterate type of spec.
4 Likes
Just rework Pestilence to do exactly that. Make it a choice node with Defile.
Problem solved.
I think there’s a problem with that idea, at least in terms of this specific thread…
This is about Frost, not Unholy. We don’t get Pestilence. Now, would it help Unholy? Probably, but I have no clue because I personally don’t play Unholy.
Oopsie Daisy, I’m an Unholy main and have literally no clue about Frost.
Yeah you are right, this wouldn’t help Frost at all. My bad.
1 Like
I’m all for streamling clunky parts of Unholy though, so if it works for Unholy then I’ll support it.
Cleaving strike is fine as it is. If don’t like it as frost then don’t play obliteration build for it.
I’m enjoying the cleaving strike. If you time your cds and use the rotation right you’re fine. Especially with 2hand obliterate build.
If it were to do that it wouldn’t be Death and Decay, but more like Blade Flurry.
The thing is why does this need to be so much of a risk? No one else needs to risk a 20 CD where the reward is basic cleaving.
In your example the optimal move is to no cleave for 3+ sec. Why does this ability need so much risk?
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BoS - you screw up and burn up BoS in 6 seconds. Poof. Done.
You’re acting like DnD is the only risk vs reward kind of play. And it’s more about knowing the dungeon and knowing when you can and can’t use it. No different than any other CD really.
you act like this isn’t a problem for frost mages/ele shamans or any class that has a big ground aoe effect. its something that the tank needs to be aware of and if hes not, you let him know. the changes i feel like they should make is either 1) make pillar a 15 second duration so you can set up everything properly, 2) take DnD off the GCD entirely, or 3) like you said bake into remorseless winter (which i doubt they do seeing how the talent is for all three specs).
1 Like
For blood it’s no problem to drop DnD since he directs the pace.
For Unholy they could rework Pestilence to be a DnD replacer. It would then work similar to Arms’ Sweeping Strike.
And for Frost they could add this to Remorseless Winter when Cleaving Strikes is learned.
DnD would be just another useless ability to not slot on the bar just like Death Coil.
2 Likes
I was thinking about this the other day.
I feel DnD placing a debuff on targets that will last X seconds once they’re moved from DnD to still allow cleaving strikes would be a nice compromise. That way there is still some timing/placement required to initially place DnD, but you’re not punished by tanks movement or affixes requiring the tank to move/you to move.
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Rem Winter should allow you to cleve, not DnD. At this point, DnD should be BDK and UDK tool. Call it Deadly Winds or Wind Chill.
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We already have a cleave that doesnt need any other ability to be present just sitting there collecting dust for 2 expansions.
Remove cleaving strikes completely and buff Frostscythe a little more and take the target cap away.
The solution is just sitting there. Obliterate shouldnt be cleaving.
5 Likes
It’s possible that ground aoe effects present a problem for other classes, but that’s beside the point. It hasn’t big a part of Frost’s gameplay for a long time, if ever, and I don’t see why it needs to be part of the gameplay now when both Blood and Unholy already fullfil that niche for DKs. That said, I think any of the options you propose would be better than the state of Frost now, so hopefully they address this somehow.
2 Likes