Reminder - Class tree needs rework too

Classes Monk
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While we are discussing ww needing a rework and mw/brm being in ok/good spots, I’d like to remind you all that our class tree needs some love too.

In this thread, I’d like to discuss our class tree in particular. I’ll kickstart the topic with starting nodes and capstones first. You guys can throw in your own ideas and opinions and add in some more meat on anything class tree related. Keep it positive and constructive, because that’s what we want from the devs too!

First, the starting nodes

Tiger’s Lust
Is there any monk who doesn’t pick this one? Why does brew get to be the only spec who has it for free while the other 2 need to invest. Brew should be starting with Expel Harm and Tiger’s lust should just be baseline instead of expel harm :man_shrugging:

Rising Sun Kick
Again with an ability that should be baseline but only ww gets by default. For brm its a way to generate healing spheres while mw has interactions with it in 1/4 of their tree nodes (no kidding). Touch of death is baseline and doesn’t interact with either brm or mw trees. WW should start with touch of death and all monks should have rising sun kick by default. We shouldn’t need to invest points in our class tree to use spec tree nodes to the fullest.

Soothing Mist
One of the biggest outliers in our tree imo (And I main MW)… It feels very bad to have this choice as the ‘healer starter node’. Because there is no way a ww or brm would want to invest a talent here to channel this in melee. Only reason to spend a point here is to take a node that depends on it… very badly designed ‘choice’ here :confused:

For BrM/WW to want to invest into a healing spell it needs to be instant and/or be a burst healing ability. Which mw doesn’t have in it’s base toolkit.

Expel harm could fit the bill, it fits more with BrM but both specs could start with the same node (Pally has this kind of behavior in it’s class tree too)

Healing elixir? I mean, it’s way less powerful than what pallies have in lay on hands, and it’s only self healing (a bit weird to give healers a self heal as a first node but still a better option than soothing mist…) This needs to go in the class tree regardless!

Otherwise, Improved Detox could do the trick too… I know the dispel improvements aren’t used as starter nodes for other healers but it’s still a better options for all 3 specs than what we have right now…

Give soothing mist baseline to mw. (I’m sure some mistweavers would skip it if they could even… but having it baseline for mw only is the right step to make :pray:)

If soothing mist is our only option there, it needs to be upgraded… Make it so that we can move while casting. While it sound strong, it it’s still not ‘lay on hands’ strong :man_shrugging:
(having maybe some ww/brm abilities that could be castable while channeling soothing could help make this choice decent too… I’ll leave it to anyone’s imagination…)

Starting nodes conclusion
While this might require a shuffle of the nodes bellow our starting nodes, I feel these changes would make for a better beginning of our tree. Whether we get more starting nodes (like some classes have 2 starting nodes per spec) Oe stay with 3, the actual nodes should be changed for the reason mentioned above…

Capstones
While I liked the statues capstones idea, in reality all 3 capstones are quite bad.

Jade serpent can be ok for mw in some cases, should just be put in mw tree for those cases :man_shrugging:Why would a BrM/WW pick this for a HoT effect that require you to pick the worst node in the tree, in soothing mist, for it to work… Let’s be real, it’s a hidden 2 nodes talent for ww and brm…

Black ox is gimmicky at best, even for brm…

White tiger is ok-ish but doesn’t feel great to play like a capstone should.

I agree that capstones shouldn’t be almighty on a class tree but here are some suggestions that could be good in here.

Rushing/Refreshing Jade Wind
All spec have either of those in their spec tree. It fits the class tree perfectly (maybe not a capstone but should be moved there anyways) Either make it a choice node for refreshing/rushing OR change it depending on spec (refreshing for mw, rushing for the other 2…) Priests have a case of this in their tree

Flying Serpent kick
Why is such a great utility node still only a WW thing? We can worry that monk would have too much movement… but it’s easy to remove 3-charge roll at this point… :man_shrugging:

Touch of karma
Now I know we have a lot of defensives even without this, but who picks all the defensive options that we have anyways? We could make it so that WW can improve the damage it returns so as to not make BrM/MW too strong with it (for example, included in Forbidden Technique (just Rename it to Forbiden Techniques and there we go!)

Conclusion of capstones
Maybe some choices are stronger than others in this list. I’m not saying these 3 should absolutely be there, it’s just a bunch of ideas that I find would be interesting, plus it removes a few nodes from WW tree to help them reshuffle their tree and open up options for their anticipated rework :thinking:

/discuss

9 Likes
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A lot of good points here. I 100% agree on the capstones, just scrap all of them. Statues are not a good idea. We need some group utility and some of our abilities to be combined. Fort Brew and Dampen Harm really should be one of these. Just lower the CD/ give multiple charges of Dampen Harm and change the name to Fortifying Brew. There is no reason this is 6 minutes… its not even good.

We need less bloat in our rotation but not necessarily in the amount of buttons we HAVE. I also like the Rushing Jade Wind idea, making it around like a 45 second CD, and do some healing even in other specs aside from MW, but a lot more in MW. Increase range a bit on the heal. Put it as a capstone and boom, there is one idea.

Next maybe a defensive style ability, say something like Rally cry/ Devotion aura mastery kind of ability. 15% damage reduction for anyone in 30 yards plus a small health buff. Something like Living Brew, or some kind of Meditation. Maybe a big clickable Keg?

We need group utility soooo badly. Some kind of Lust or damage buff to the party could be massive as a capstone. I wish Blizzard would see that giving Lust and Brez out to more classes would be a good thing for the game. They are scared to do it for some reason. I would say Brez, but I think a Lust would be more fitting for us, and a Brez be more for Priests.

Soothing Mist needs gone 100% like you said, just give it to MW baseline. I dont care for the Flying Serpent kick being in the class tree, we have so much movement already. Maybe a Flying Serpent Kick version in the BrM tree, Clash is just a dumb ability. I think Healing Elixer should just go away and there could be a talent that pulls Expel harm off of the GCD. Chi Wave needs to go, or be reworked, and Chi-Burst should be Instant. This being a cast is so far outside of the Monk playstyle, I dont know why they gave us a casted spell like that. Chi wave should work more like Halo, the Priest one, and Chi Burst could be similar to Divine Star. Those two abilities are so perfect and can fit into any classes style. Just reskin them for us Blizz!

Anyway, this was a nice little vent, Thanks for reading, cause I know Blizzard isnt reading any of this. Really wish my favorite class was another one at times, cause we just get ignored mostly. Oh well, I still have fun, I just have to have an Evoker or Shaman friend queue with me for that utility. The real utility is the friends we make along the way I guess.

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Agreed but I’ll be blunter on capstones they are absolute garbage.

Some we don’t even take regardless of role outside of VERY specific situatios. While other classes like paladin take 2-3 of theirs in any roll in almost all situations.

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I mean… the capstones should’ve been the celestials from the start if we wanted to summon something… :man_shrugging:

Although I don’t know if it would have been a good idea (just saying that as class fantasy it would have been nice, but maybr hard to balance I don’t know)

Statues idea is ok in itself, if you scratch these and add in proper utility in the form of statues, I am all in! It’s basically just an aoe with an object in the middle to show where it is visually… A bit too much like totems to my likings but hey :man_shrugging:

Like a statue that purges 1 beneficial effect on an ennemy every x seconds, or a status that soothes 1 mob with enrage effect every x second. Or a status that lust or wtv…

(Just examples anyways) statues arent bad by themselves, although I don’t like the theme, they can be strong options if they’re made to be…

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I posted this in another thread a while back and I don’t want it to get buried so I will Copy-Paste it here in hopes that a meaningful thread full of great suggestions can be created where in the off chance we get lucky and Blizzard happens to accidentally click on the Monk forums they will be able to read it.

Talent trees:
The monk class tree is absolutely horrendous and has virtually no talent flexibility since almost every talent we take outside of the obvious choices has something to do with healing. The talents that we can change around will provide either some defensive bonuses or mobility. The fact that almost the entire left portion of our class tree is useless in generally all content available for WW feels bad.

Faeline Stomp:

Many in the WW community dislike Faeline Stomp. Not only does it struggle to fit the class fantasy and play style of a highly mobile combo fighter, it feels extremely clunky to use in fights where you can’t reliably stay in the same spot for the majority of fights. The damage boost provided is mandatory so we even though it’s an ability that most don’t enjoy, we are still forced to take it so we don’t somehow fall below tanks in damage.

Fists of Fury:

FoF has seen quite a bit of balance adjustments since it’s inception and one simple issue still exists since Day 1: Channeling an ability as a class that is rewarded for combo style fighting feels bad. FoF should not be a channeled ability that prevents the user from pressing other abilities. I can’t quite remember when it was mentioned, but I distinctly remember the developers stating they don’t want FoF to be in a state where the user has to stop channeling the ability because other abilities would be stronger. The solution blizzard took was number tuning which to me feels like a mistake. With the way WW is designed at its core, users will almost always find situations where FoF should be cancelled. Past iterations saw FoF cancellations when RSK came off CD so monks had to make sure to time their FoF usage properly as to not have FoF overlap with RSK which in turn created a complex and punishing rotation because improper use of FoF created a domino effect which lead to Chi/Energy starving. The current iteration is clipping FoF while in serenity to generate additional chi for single target, and in AOE/Cleave it is clipping FoF for set bonus(pre 10.1). Fists of Fury has arguably been one of the most iconic abilities WW has had, so if the plan is to keep Fists of Fury in the game it needs a substantial adjustment so it never needs to be cancelled.

Touch Of Death:

I could write an essay’s worth of words to describe the issues that ToD has and it still wouldn’t express how much of a double edged sword this ability is. Ultimately TOD is strong but inconsistent. This inconsistency is only further exasperated by the talents we must choose to improve TOD. As it currently stands TOD is a big influence on our damage with AOE/cleave fights, yet provides a minimal damage boost in single target situations. The current TOD talents that exist I feel pigeonhole the developers into being unable to give us strong alternatives. If the plan is to keep TOD the way it is, then adding a split talent that is useful in single target situations would help the spec similar to how Skytouch/Skyreach is now. A monk friend who has a strong understanding of the class made a suggestion to how a split talent could work and I think it’s worth taking into consideration: “Instead of Taking Flying Guillotine, TOD stores every Rising sun kick on a target while not on cooldown. Upon the first use of TOD, these stacks are consumed and increases the damage of TOD”. Perhaps it has a max of 10 stacks and upon reaching 10 stacks it can be used regardless of enemy health. A split talent like this would be healthy as it would generally be used in Single Target situations where we otherwise wouldn’t use TOD throughout the entirety of the fight.

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Yeah the statues themselves would be fine at like row 3 or something. But if we’re talking capstones I think it’s an easy argument to make that those are probably the worst in the game.

Mages have things like shifting power and meteor, DH has the hunt legendary and most other classes have shadowlands legendary tier options that I remember them actually using in their general tree. They just slapped a damage statue in because they were afraid any of the lego powers we actually used in SLs would be too good in the general tree, so instead we get reduced ToD in the middle tier so they could move on

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Let’s keep this thread about the class tree guys!

I know our lack of group utility and WW are closely related to the class tree, but there are dozens of threads for theses subjects already :slightly_smiling_face:

Let’s just say this:

Dear developer who stumbled upon this thread, the monk community has concerns about ww state as well as our overall group utility. Make sure you take a look at threads that discuss those topics in more depth. Thanks! - A monk who cares about the monk class as a whole :slightly_smiling_face:

Now, while I am at it, I’m fine with the class tree having no real throughput option. I’ve seen classes have some spells nerfed heavily because they were competing as capstones in the class tree instead of competing with capstones in the spec tree.
(MindGames comes to mind here…)

For me, the capstones in the spec trees are supposed to heavily impact how a spec plays and have heavy impacts on what is strong throughput wise (be it dps/hps/tankiness) the class tree should focus a lot more in everything else and add a bit of flavor that any monk can take without it being broken.

So honestly, not having SL covenant ability in there or strong artifact powers like ID, doesn’t bother me at all. These should compete with other throughput nodes in their respective spec trees (in my opinion) otherwise they become mandatory talents. Our class tree is great at doing that but we have a lot of dead nodes or options that don’t synergize well with the specs… So let’s focus on these things instead :slight_smile:

I mentioned it in the original post but an ability in the class tree, which is optional for a spec, but the spec tree has 10+ nodes that interacts with it… is a big flaw… (rising sun kick for MW)

Now I know you can have setups as MW without RSK. I pvp without it sometimes… but it’s still a shame to lose all those interactions with 1/4 of the tree…

For me, if a spec interacts a lot with a node in the class tree, the spec should have that spell as a starting node if it’s not baseline…

Now, would having more than one starting node by spec make sense? I’ve barely scratched that topic earlier but maybe there would be a good setup with this? (Although I still think rsk should be baseline for all monks) but both BrM and MW starting with Expel Harm (for example) could make sense :thinking: (even though expel harm doesn’t interact much with MW aside from proccing gust of mist I believe). It could do more if it becomes the starting node though. But let’s not dwell into the ifs here, I just want to throw the idea in there.

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You forgot to mention some of the most egregious crap on the talent tree, the ridiculous amount of bloat.

Improved Para is bloat (could easily be baseline).
Ferocity of Xuen is bloated (2 tier talent that could just be 1 point).
ToD talents are bloat (could easily be baseline or condensed into 1 talent).
Grace of the Crane is bloat (could easily be fused with Close to Heart).
Fast Feet is bloat (should just be baseline).
Improved Vivify is bloat (could be baseline or just 1 talent point).
Tiger Tail Sweep is bloat (could easily be baseline or just 1 talent point).
Escape from Reality is bloated (could easily just be 1 talent point).

Literally all the talents on rows 6 and 7 are bloated and could easily just be 1 talent point.

I disagree with you about the Celestials being our capstones because we have significantly better things to work with. One capstone could be old zen meditation which was basically a 90% group/raid DR. Another could be Nimble Brew which was free trinket. And the last could be Windwalking Aura on crack where it could be a base 125% move speed bonus and we never drop below 100% movement speed.

Each of those would let us cheese a certain type of mechanic. I truly miss the days of MoP where mechanics were suggestions for us and not required.

5 Likes
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Tbh would really love a monk class tree rework move some things around and add better capstones like Jade Statue and Soothing Mists aren’t exactly useful if your fistweaving like don’t want to be standing still channelling on someone whilst in melee range of a boss.

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Copy/paste from PTR…

These are easy and achievable “helpers” that Monk could use right now. Swap Improved Roll and SooM, and add a connection from Windwalking to Resonant Fists. These would fix a lot of sour points right now.

They’re also stupidly easy checkboxes to hit, so the only reason it wouldn’t happen is spite, arrogance, or ignorance (or a combination – pick 2).

Eventually, maybe one day, in rework world, my ideal Class tree would look closer to something like this:

    (01)    [02]    [03]    
[04]        (05)        <06>
(07)[08](09)    [10](11)(12)
    (13)    (14)    (15)    

[16](17)    [18][19]    [20]
[21]<22>(23)[24][25]<26>    
(27)    [28]    <29>[30]    

    (31)    (32)    (33)    
[34]    (35)    (36)    (37)
(38)    (39)    (40)    (41)

 1: (Improved Roll) -> 4,8,9
 2: [Tiger Palm] -> 5
 3: [Fortifying Brew] -> 6,10,11
 4: [Soothing Mist] -> 7,8
 5: (Ferocity of Xuen) x2 -> 9,10
 6: <Chi Wave|Chi Burst> -> 11,12
 7: (Elusive Mists) x2 -> 16
 8: [Detox] -> 13
 9: (Profound Rebuttal) -> 13,23
10: [Paralysis] -> 14,15
11: (Calming Presence) -> 15
12: (Tiger Tail Sweep) x2 -> 20
13: (Improved Vivify) x2 -> 16,17,18
14: (Improved Paralysis) -> 18, 19
15: (Grace of the Crane) x2 -> 18,19,20
=== 8 REQUIRED
16: [Summon Jade Serpent Statue] -> 21,22
17: (Vivacious Vivification) -> 22,23
18: [Rising Sun Kick] -> 23,24,25
19: [Spear Hand Strike] -> 25,26
20: [Dampen Harm] -> 26
21: [Transcendence] -> 27
22: <Ring of Peace|Song of Chi-Ji> -> 28
23: (Vigorous Expulsion) -> 28
24: [Tiger's Lust] -> 32
25: [Disable] -> 29,30
26: <Fortifying Ingredients|Ironshell Brew> -> 30
27: (Escape from Reality) x2 -> 31
28: [Diffuse Magic] -> 31,32
29: <Celerity|Chi Torpedo> -> 32,33
30: [Summon Black Ox Statue] -> 33
=== 20 Required
31: (Close to Heart) x3 -> 34,35
32: (Windwalking) x3 -> 35,36
33: (Generous Pour) x3 -> 36,37
34: [Fallen Order] -> 38
35: (Walk Among Wild Gods) -> 39
36: (Flurry of Blows) x2 -> 40
37: (Shape of No Size) x2 -> 41
38: (Not All Who Wander)
39: (Never Walk Alone)
40: (Peak Performance)
41: (Formless Technique)

The general class tree is slightly redesigned. There are meaningful changes applied where appropriate. The following talents have been removed:

  • (Hasty Provocation) - baseline
  • (Strength of Spirit) - baseline
  • (Fast Feet) - baseline
  • (Fatal Touch) - see Touch of Death changes
  • (Improved Touch of Death)
  • (Resonant Fists) - moved to Windwalker tree
  • (Eye of the Tiger)
  • (Bounce Back)
  • (Save Them All)
  • (White Tiger Statue)

Tier 3 talents are redesigned.

Fallen Order and Not All Who Wander are (hehehe) clones of the Shadowlands ability and legendary, designed around achieving high reset potential of Fallen Order (key difference being the ability increases the rate at which the ability cools down versus raw cooldown reduction, guaranteeing some cooldown timer and binding the benefit from zero to infinite). Not All Who Wander also increases the chance the summoned Monk matches your specialization.

Walk Among Wild Gods gives you an extra celestial on summon. If you don’t already know how to Invoke, the celestial is fixed per spec. If you already do know, it summons a second celestial. MW may have CJ and YL, WW may have CJ and Xuen, and BrM may have Niuzao and Xuen. Never Walk Alone causes the bonus celestial to be permanent but at a significantly reduced effect. (The point is permanent off-role, so choosing to skip your spec summon for a permanent primary is possible but not intended to be anywhere near optimal.)

Flurry of Blows and Peak Performance center around significant attack speed increases when using Tiger Palm and adding a Teachings of the Monastery like prof effect to auto attacks (except Blackout Kick fires from any ability, but consumes a max of one stack at a time). This is intended to address some of the poor haste scaling by adding value to Monk’s weaker than average auto-attack loop.

Shape of No Size and Formless Technique allow a small class-wide stagger and secondary stat bonus based on staggered damage (non-BrM always get the minimum tier, yellow is 2x, red is 4x the baseline value).

The goal of these are to focus the theme of the class to either the celestial blessing, being a member of a greater order of monks, or the single-minded pursuit of personal perfection.

Other talent changes:

  • (Vigorous Expulsion) no longer increases Expel Harm healing, guaranteed critical effect to yourself
  • (Improved Paralysis) also applies a 90% slow for 2s when Paralysis ends, decaying over the duration
  • [Fortifying Brew] base cooldown to 4 minutes (also, fix the tooltip so it says what it actually does!)
  • [Touch of Death] base cooldown to 1 minute
  • (Generous Pour) increases your haste by 1/2/4% in addition to its current effects
  • (Windwalking) now increases movement speed by 5/10/20% and nearby allies by 3/5/10%
  • Range of group utility improvements increased to 20 yards, only applies to party/raid members

Tiger Palm and Jab

Tiger Palm replacing Jab as minor damage and resource generation has seen mixed reception. As such, Jab will come back to fill the original role Tiger Palm now occupies. Since Mistweaver and Brewmaster have key interactions with Tiger Palm currently, their sections will be reviewed separately for interactions (e.g., Counterattack affects Tiger Palm, Blackout Combo affects Jab, Ancient Teachings affects both).

Jab animation and function from MoP returned, where the weapon type changes the skill name and attack animation–a glyph option retained to “Always Jab”. Warcraft Monks cannot technically go unarmed and therefore it’s not sensible to have no attack which uses the mandatory weapon slot.

Tiger Palm damage brought in line with Blackout Kick, it will deal slight Physical damage, slightly more Nature damage, and apply a Physical bleed (Chi Disruption) that increases the damage of Blackout Kick by 10% (for WW, mastery is triggered twice instead of a flat buff).

If anyone has any questions on what these “head canon” capstones do, or would like to talk about placement further, I’m happy to discuss.

Chi Color

Green is great though Yu’lon is only one of the four celestials. Speaking with Monk trainers should allow Monks to dedicate themselves to a specific celestial, changing the color of your chi and mist powered abilities to match.

Which celestial is your favorite?

  • :speech_balloon: “Yu’lon” (Green)
  • :speech_balloon: “Niuzao” (Yellow)
  • :speech_balloon: “Chi-ji” (Red)
  • :speech_balloon: “Xuen” (Blue)
  • :speech_balloon: “I don’t really believe in wild gods.” (White)
2 Likes
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I think one of my main problems with monk tree is how boring the capstone talents are for both brew, mw, and ww.

The refreshing mist talent and taunt statue could be placed in the respective specialization talent tree, and the damage statue could just be removed tbh.

Idk what could replace them, but they’re all really boring to play with little to bring gameplay wise.

Might add details to how I feel about other talents, but I definitely dislike the above talents.

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Hello. I’ve been afk for a few weeks on vacation so couldn’t feed this thread as much as I wanted!

Great suggestions so far!

I’ve been thinking on soothing mist these past few days. I know some mw would want to be able to move while it channels.

What would ww/brm guys think of such a change (thinking if soothing mist stays there) ??

Would it even be enough? What about making some brm/ww abilities useable while casting soothing mist? (Any example of such abilities is welcomed)

#discuss

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Yeah, I don’t think there is anyone including those who like them who think that the statues should have been a capstone talent. They are just too weak for that slot, should have been baseline and are preventing us from getting something better.

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They should add a connector to JSS, connect/add unison to the class tree. At least then it will feel like it’s doing something again.

JSS needs some major buffs either way ( chi burst too ). Since the 25% damage and 25% health changes it has been pretty meh ( doesn’t feel like it’s scaling that well tbh ), I was getting more out of it in S1.

For S2 I moved that point to “Calming Presence” because the damage it prevents is more than jSS’s total healing during most dungeons. ( A tier 1 talent beating out a capstone talent is meh ) I still keep JSS for raids due to more soo mist usage and less damage taken/prevented but will probably be swapping it out too for the last 2 heroic bosses, I keep forgetting.

Id be all down for a talent that makes soo mist cast-able on the move again. It would probably be/feel better than 1/3 of the placeholder talents in the class tree tbh.

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Regarding Soothing Mist, I think it’d be cooler if it was Mistwalk. However, I’m fine with it being a channelled while moving again.

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I bet it would a be more appealing choice for both ww and brm too…

Although, blizz gave that to their newest child in Verdant Embrace. Would monk be able to get this back now?

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They also gave them Good Karma, and apparently Aug Evokers might be getting old windwalking.

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I’ve been crying about this all week with my friends i really take it as an insult from blizzard, we can’t even run windwalking because need the points in other useless talents, and blizz just came and said, “hey monks F all of u and your windwalking talents we gonna give it to our newest son, the evoker”

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I’ve got my money on this being a failed experiment. I don’t think it can work as it currently is on the ptr with the current wow end meta game. Blizz created a parsing/simming atmosphere and aug evoker goes against all of that. Unless blizz can change how logs read the aug evokers damage then I think it’s going to end up doa.

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Not sure of Jade statue. Should at least duplicate ALL healing for around 35%. I don’t really know if this statue does this. I don’t do MW, so a healer can provide a better insight for this statue.

Tiger Statue should provide at least 15-20% haste and a 10% damage boost for a 3 min CD.

Ox Statue should be a choice nod between the mass taunt OR have a longer CD to provide a 15-20% damage reduction instead.

Purely just ideas. Take it with a grain of salt. As final capstones, these should be giving more than what they currently do, as mentioned.