Reminder: Blizzard was explicitly against dual spec being in TBC

WoW Classic Cataclysm Classic Discussion
189

I think we can all agree that right now the #1 thing on Blizzard’s mind is probably not dual spec.

Modern-happenings references aside…

I can fathom how Blizzard, with their notion of #somechanges and the way they spoke about it prior to TBC launch, has opened a can of worms that has led to this discussion in the first place.

So I get it, the reason why people are more loudly clamoring for stuff like this.

So now we get in to subjective opinion/interpretation territory:

I think that when they served up #somechanges to the community in those talks, it was a can of worms they didn’t intend to open as widely as they did. I think they were probably referring to “smoothing” changes, essentially, tweaks in order to maintain the remembrance of TBC in an environment where the players will play it differently than they did back then.

The thing is, we have to draw a line somewhere, right? Some changes can’t mean all changes, right? At what point are you no longer playing the game within the parameters of a TBC framework? At what point could the argument be made that you can just go make characters on retail at the scaled level roughly equivalent to 2007 lvl 70, and do the TBC content there, with all the features/bells/whistles? Can we ask for talent changes, class balancing? What is off-limits?

I don’t think they used the phrase “some changes” in a way that would predict that players would want or desire drastic amounts of changes to the original implementation. While some changes does imply that they are not completely beholden to the original implementation on all things, I’m still inclined to think that it is still the guiding framework here, because otherwise this project’s purpose kind of…doesn’t really line up with the whole reason it exists in the first place?

What’s the line to you? Once you’ve explained that, don’t you believe that line could be completely subjective? I think we both agree that there is --a-- line, correct?

190

Don’t care, dual spec is good

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…this doesn’t matter.

So you understand that Blizzard INVITED changes and proceeded with their own?

>>>>THEN THAT IS THE END OF THE DISCUSSION<<<<

Your opinion is duly noted.

Nope. There was one line, to change, or to not change. We have crossed that line. That means any and all changes are on the table and at best we can talk about PROBABILITY of implementation with a high degree of speculation.

Also note that we actually crossed that line the moment Blizzard created its EULA and we all signed it. https://www.blizzard.com/en-us/legal/fba4d00f-c7e4-4883-b8b9-1b4500a402ea/blizzard-end-user-license-agreement

Alterations to the Platform. Blizzard may change, modify, suspend, or discontinue any aspect of the Platform or Accounts at any time, including removing items, or revising the effectiveness of items in an effort to balance a Game. Blizzard may also impose limits on certain features or restrict your access to parts or all of the Platform or Accounts without notice or liability.

Heaven’s no, you can’t implement all changes when changes are necessarily going to conflict with one another. You also can’t assume a shift from #nochanges means #allchangesrightnow. This is hairbrained logic. That Blizzard has opened the door to changes means exactly that, they’ve opened the door to changes. They get the say. They aren’t suddenly hamstrung and forced to implement anything we come up with.

This is silly.

How many boards can you replace on a ship and it still remain that ship? TBCC is whatever Blizzard deems it to be.

Nothing is off limits to ASK, why would you think otherwise? Blizzard gets to say “No” without even saying the words, they just have to ignore it.

Blizzard can decide that Dual Spec fits well within TBCC, or they can decide it doesn’t. There are a myriad of reasons we know and can speculate as to how it can fit and be guided by both Original TBC and the course of TBCC.

But that is Blizzard’s call.

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193

Um, no, you don’t get to end the discussion. This is clearly a topic people want to continue discussing, and as long as they do, people on both sides are free to voice their views on the feature and it’s prospective inclusion to TBCC.

Uh…yeah. That’s exactly what we’re doing. The probability, in my view, is very low because of…the arguments that have been presented in the countless threads.

You think the probability is…existent. Well good for you. Yes, a probability exists that they could add dual spec. So now what? Where do you go from there?

You don’t seem to realize that by quashing the reason for discussion, you’re also invariably invalidating the need for any of the threads that want dual spec, because essentially you are correct, it’s up to Blizzard, but none of us know exactly what Blizzard here and now thinks, we aren’t mind readers, so we are predictably going to discuss the likelihood of it being added. That much is already assumed (I hope).

Yeah, I don’t actually agree with this at all because it ignores how classic came to exist in the first place.

It ignores and even somewhat props up the “You think you do but you don’t” phrase that spawned the entire movement that led to us getting classic.

It’s the players that made classic happen, so I imagine they care a great deal about what the players think in regards to its implementation.

I…don’t? Of course you can ask for whatever you want, doesn’t mean I’m not going to give reasoning or explanations as to why it’s either foolish to ask it or likely has a very low chance of being added.

I think everybody knows this, and has plainly acknowledged it.

We’re not here to direct Blizzard. We’re offering up a conversation that they can either deem informative or not, as to why dual spec should/shouldn’t be added.

Most of your points seem based on coloring any conversation on this topic as arbitrary so that you can lean on “It’s up to Blizzard”, but for some reason this doesn’t apply to people asking for dual spec? We have just as much a right to say dual spec shouldn’t be added as you do to say it should.

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194

why wasn’t there a cry for dual spec during vanilla?
the vanilla we actually had gold problems in if we weren’t a mage

we need dual spec on vanilla servers too, for all the same reasons people want it for TBC.
realm consolidations.
faster spawning herbs and mines. its a 15 year old game, just make things spawn instantly, destroy the bot economy.

195

…and our argument is simply, with provided evidence to support the notion, that dual spec is one of the things they will not feel forced to implement.

It doesn’t mean I’m omniscient and know for certain without any shadow of any doubt that they won’t. It’s just an argument. A viewpoint. That other players share too.

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196

/headdesk

I didn’t declare the topic off limits, I came to the only logical conclusion that trying argue that Dual Spec can’t fit because of age-old quotations means exactly squat.

Reading is fundamental.

Lying is a sin.

This is a genetic fallacy, which is a commonly used form of rhetorical sleight of hand that commits a non sequitur. The origins of a thing do not necessarily have any bearing on the current reality of that same thing. This is often used (either comedically or otherwise) to ruin seemingly innocuous things by “revealing” nefarious origins. It is dumb thinking.

Don’t use it.

You didn’t.

My point is to properly contextualize an argument you and other #nochangers have made as not the absolute you make it out to be, as you have in this very thread.

Like I said, lying is a sin.

Your evidence doesn’t support it, because Blizzard isn’t beholden to its past self.

197

This right here, is your opinion, because you don’t actually know this. You’re making an assumption about how much they value the TBC design intent. They’ve never said how much they do or don’t. Saying that they are for some changes doesn’t also mean they don’t care about TBC design ethos. That remains to be seen without a direct, clear-cut statement from Blizzard.

That dual spec is immune to some changes is my opinion. It’s just another on the list of arguments for why them adding dual spec is a low probability.

You’re constantly wanting to shift the point of fault towards semantics of intention here.

It should simply be assumed that when a person posts…anything here, on this forum, that it is their opinion. It doesn’t need to be stated every time a person says a thing. The only way in which you would presume a person is implying that what they’re saying is objective fact, is if they say so.

I truly believe that dual spec is not a valid “some change”, due to where it falls in the design ethos of TBC (intended and purposeful). That’s not a lie…it’s how I see it as a long-time consumer of Blizzard products (since the beginning). You can choose to value that opinion, or don’t, but that’s how discussions work.

I’m really doing my best to not be insulting to you, the least you could do is give me the same respect.

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198

No, it’s a topic that people like you want to use to bludgeon others with repeatedly by spreading false information.

Or lie about it. Like you do.

He just said…

And now you’re asking this?

:roll_eyes:

No, you’re doing that by purposefully poisoning the well by spreading false information all the time and then pretending like you don’t realize it’s false.

Folks discuss things as a matter of understanding particular aspects about the game. You don’t like something so you purposefully try to make it look like something it isn’t by telling lies about it.

You don’t want Dual Spec so you’re lying about it to make it look like it’s undesirable.

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Do you even understand what lying means?

Not a single word of my thoughts why dual spec shouldn’t be added is rooted in any kind of lie.

Everything I’ve stated on the subject is rooted in pure observation of Blizzard’s past actions, and my interpretation of the purpose of classic TBC.

Just because you disagree with something doesn’t mean it’s a lie. If you’re going to accuse people of something, be prepared to actually back it up instead of just repeating it over and over.

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200

Well, if all these changes HAVE to be made might as well just delete classic and classic tbc and tell people to play the old raids in retail! Because if all these changes need to be made thats what the game will end up as.

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Bwahahahaha WHAT?!? No one is beholden to their past selves… you get to CHOOSE. This is an inherent property to being a PERSON. Corporations are no different.

You signed an explicit contract that says that Blizzard can change the game for any reason or no reason at all for crying out loud…

This isn’t an opinion. This is a fact. If you can’t accept this, you have a terrifyingly warped sense of reality.

This is a grand and terrible cop-out. This is the lazy and juvenile method of justifying holding any position whatsoever because you just default to “but its my opinion” as a defense while simultaneously ripping into anyone for daring to contradict in light of your “evidence”. You don’t get to flip flop as a defense and you don’t get to squirm backwards now in a bad attempt at concern trolling like so:

  1. If you lie, you disrespect yourself as well as everyone you speak to.
  2. If you disregard what is read in order to attack a position not held or even offered, you lie to yourself and you misrepresent (ie lie) about the person you respond to. See 1.
  3. If you utilize dumb thinking, that is deliberate faulty logic while trying to score cheap rhetorical points, you blatantly disrespect anyone you’re responding to and anyone you’re trying to convince. You’re assuming both are dumb.

Bad rhetoric and worse logic, coupled with outright lies, are massively insulting. It tells me you don’t care about truth, you only care about winning the argument. It tells me you don’t think I can recognize truth from deceit. It tells me you don’t think anyone merely reading along cares either. Or worse… it tells me you don’t think any of us can recognize it in the first place.

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To them, having a different opinion than them is a lie.

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203

Yeah, all you’re doing is attempting to justify why it’s OK for you to act like a jerk, so we’re done here.

You either want to honestly engage on why dual spec should/shouldn’t be added, or you don’t. Pick one.

EDIT: Ah, here it comes, the rebuttal of how he picks the third option: continue for the pure and simple sake of getting that dopamine hit will being a condescending jerk (something inherent in a typical schoolyard bully), without actually engaging the topic of whether dual spec will get added or not.

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204

Calling out rhetoric as dumb (because it objectively is), responses as proof of illiteracy (because you objectively misrepresent and don’t read), or pointing lies (because they objectively are) is never a fun experience when you’re on the receiving end.

But don’t gaslight us all now on the basis that we have to tolerate your lies, deceit, misrepresentations, and hypocrisy or somehow we are the ones in the wrong.

If you declare something to BE something, you aren’t merely stating an opinion, you’re making a claim.

Further, opinions aren’t immune to being wrong or outright lies.

I am honestly engaging. You’re taking offense to being directly argued against rather than arguing the strawmen you’ve set up, so you are now acting like I’ve wounded you with my tone.

Grow up.

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So stop whining about argumentative methodology and give me an actual opinion to work with here.

Do you think Blizzard will or won’t add dual spec?

I think they won’t.

Unless they decide to develop WOTLKC, which in all likelihood we could see it in the pre-patch.

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206

Stop linking articles from 13 years ago thinking they hold the same ideologies they do now as they did back then. Not sure why people think this is a point for debate.

207

I would love to see dual spec implemented as a QOL change. Since #somechanges is clearly a thing. But I don’t see them doing it in P2. Maybe P3?

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Stop making unsupported declarations and I will. Bad reasoning is never immune to being pointed out.

It is a likely feature to add during one of the doldrums we’ll get in TBCC’s life cycle. We’re in one now but P2 is already looming, but if I had to guess a phase at all, it would be P4 with Zul’aman. P4 is going to be short by necessity but it will still end up being far too long for most people with no new Arena season (S3 will either be winding down or possibly ended), a 10m raid that is inferior (mostly) to T6 and only offers a fun mount.

ZA alone is a very bare patch. So if Blizzard adds it, it’ll be there most likely, along with a package deal of “we’re dropping attunements and making it so you can skip to Vashj/Kael and a bunch of other stuff” so people mass level alts and get everyone set for the final Sunwell push.

I put it on more likely than not. Blizzard has deviated a lot from Original TBC and Dual Spec is hardly a deviation at all.

These are all opinions, but I’m not particularly arsed one way or another what Blizzard does.

I just know that there are no sacred cows that Blizzard won’t spit roast tomorrow if it serves their interest. That is a fact.