It’s rather absurd that rogue tanks take such a heft hit to their avoidance in these past two raids. We are impacted the most of all classes. With Scarlet Dominion now in harder raids, there’s not really any need to have the penalty to Just a Flesh Wound. These in Tandem leaves us at about 15% dodge when fully raid buffed.
Hell, I’d almost be fine with a 25% reduction in dodge, as this would at least put us up to 36% which is reasonable in combination with our chance to parry. We’re supposed to be avoidance tanked, and you’ve stripped that away from the class completely.
Agreed. Our dodge is almost non-existent at this point. Please revert the dodge reduction or at least adjust it so it’s not so penalizing to use the tanking rune.
Some rogues are just opting for Deadly Brew if they arnt too worried about their threat.
From a design/mechanics standpoint, I hate to think we have to resort to such measures to “play optimally”. At this point it looks like a huge flaw/oversight in our design that wasn’t accounted for properly.
In my utopian rogue tanking design dream, I’d probably have the following changes:
Remove the JaFW and just make it a passive trained through a book. Revert it back to previous changes or adjust the amount of dodge reduced from it to about 25% and make it a toggleable ability, similar to Righteous Fury for paladins (though have it last permanently until aura canceled, not have to refresh on death).
Update the Deadly Brew rune so that it’s useful to a tank rogue. Have it behave differently with the poisons it applies when JaFW is active. Instant Poison would be fine, and then when IP is applied, it has a chance to apply sebacious, or vice-versa, as this is usually a tank rogue’s go-to poison. This will also increase our dps/threat a little more, and make us stand out as threat/avoidance tanks by identity.
Making JaFW a passive would be an amazing change. They’d probably have to do the same thing with Metamorphosis with Warlock tanks too.
But yes, JaFW seems like such a nerf to us as tanks. It should be our go-to, but it seems like a substantial nerf to our overall avoidance. That shouldn’t be the case.
The base physical damage reduction from Just a Flesh Wound has been reduced to 20% (was 30%).
Developers’ notes: We’ve lowered the flat damage reduction portion of Just a Flesh Wound. When this was increased (when the defense scaling was introduced), this number being 30% was used to help bridge the shift from tanking in damage gear to tanking in tank gear. We feel enough time has passed to lower this number, as players have had adequate access to gear they could swap over to or get a new set of if they had geared for damage.
I’m not sure what these delulu developers are thinking at this point. Please just give us our dodge back.
They could of at least thrown us a bone and added a new effect like no limit of targets with BB when jafw is active or something to help with aoe tanking
AOE is fine between 4pc and 6pc with new Tier. 3 Target BF is pretty huge, but having energy gain and FOK spam at our disposal is also huge. I’d rather really have my avoidance back where it should be.
The problem with rogue tanks is that lessening the reductions to dodge too much allows them to be unhittable super tanks and become the defacto best tank option in the game.
Since you don’t have block, dodge/parry reduces all damage taken from physical hits. If rogues get too close to the 100% side of that, they won’t ever take damage. But cut it down too much and they will get trucked by crushing blows.
It’s a development nightmare and ultimately, the reason rogues shouldn’t have been chosen for a tanking spec imo. Mechanically with how Classic and the attack table is designed, it’s a design flaw waiting to happen.
Personally how I would fix the issue is remove the defense scaling on JaFW for damage taken, revert it back to 30% flat, and instead give JaFW a chance to “glance” incoming attacks, reducing the damage taken by 15%. Treat that glance like block in the attack table, and the chance scales off defense over cap. Now rogues have access to a block equivalent and will be able to get avoidance cap without needing full unhittable status.
This right here is the main problem - we have zero counter to crushing blows. A single CB can body us, even if we’re at full health. I get that there’s a problem with rogues having insane avoidance to the point of being unhittable, but avoidance can’t be a tank’s only form of mitigation, or it becomes a situation where your % chance to dodge in actuality becomes your % chance to not die immediately. I’d gladly give up some dodge if it meant higher damage reduction or at the very least some way to mitigate/become immune to crushing blows.
Or, like I said above, take away our dodge, but give us some real form of damage mitigation to make up for it. Or come up with another way for us to take the hits without being unhittable like Neo in the Matrix - there has to be more options than “dodge the boss or go splat like roadkill”.
I did enjoy the route of life leech/absorb that Death Dealer was going with, but obviously in that case when tanking a relevant raid boss, we see it doesn’t mitigate much, or you’re playing catch up with it. This approach also turns them into what I call the “Live Lord” against other bosses that become more farmable because of this approach as well and how it scales. It’s too strong for older content, and not strong enough for relevant content.
Our Scarlet Enclave set went through a few iterations before making it to live. At one point, we were able to get 10 stacks of Rolling with the Punches with it, which would have made an interesting combination for 4pc Draconic (getting armor bonus for each stack). I assume they wanted to avoid this however and just improved the scaling of our bonuses to keep us at 5 stacks. TBH, I’d be willing to sacrifice the dmg bonus on 6pc set, if we got 1% parry per stack to help improve our avoidance back to a reasonable level, then maybe dial the dodge reduction from JaFW to 25%. This would keep our avoidance at a reasonable level probably with Scarlet Dominion active, still keep our health pool within reason to take spike damage from a random crush, but also hopefully avoid a chain of crushing attacks (I’ve seen bad strings of them). Crushing Blows is one of our huge flaws in tanking currently.
NGL, thought this wasn’t an issue because I thought the “6% reduced change to be crit” would also push off the Crushing Blows since they come before Critical Hits on the attack table.
I keep seeing people talk about JaFW reducing dodge chance…where does it say that? Because the tooltip still says “Additionally, your chance to Dodge is multiplied by 50%”.
yes this is so bad even with decent gear (1100 gs) i got crushed on solistraza for 12k which killed me (i know i shouldnt be tanking this boss because of a measly 2.5% mitigation to spells without having to hot swap shoulder enchants but other tank had newborn aggro ) the state of tank rogues is pretty horrendous when it comes to any aoe (that isnt 5+ target then you can cheese with 2 pc coreforged tank and strike) or non physical fights and this doesnt even cover the constant nerfs when the class is only godly when geared enough to where the dodge penalty no longer matters
Multiple, is generally seen as ‘increasing’ the amount of something.
You are correct that if you multiple something by a non-1 times (ie 0.99) you will decrease the value. But in the real world, you rarely deal with that (“it’s twice as much”).
I don’t understand why they did use the phrase “reduced by 50%” that’s so much clearer on what’s happening.
Unless back in P1 it was “Additionally, your chance to Dodge is multiplied by [some number above 100%]” and they just haven’t updated the tooltip’s static wording to read properly after it was changed. – I didn’t start on my rogue until P3-ish, so I didn’t read what it had at the start other than “oh cool a tank role”.
lets not forget that blizzard nerfed our damage by 20% with JaFW
… to then give us a set bonus giving us 10% damage back in SE, lmao
I got 2-set tank on my warlock (that i can very almost hit avoidance cap in SE with the debuff, lol rogue class fantasy) and it feels amazing spreading corruption on everything and has super nice snap AoE threat with Invocation rune.
Tank rogues bonus lacks so much design … im pretty tired of our sets being designed around blade flurry (even if 4set naxx/4set SE will go hard)
what about our cloak runes that are useless without Knife juggler / 2pc T1 ?
Fan of Knives is just an AoE debuff button while the other tank grabs every single add fairly easily.
Blunderbuss could have some really cool synergy/design yet this rune hasn’t changed in forever/at all? (being the only unique rune on the cloak slot), up target cap, have parries lower CD ?!
What about Riposte we have used since phase 1 ?
ghostly strike ?
To sum up rogue tanks in SoD, overall its been fun but frustrating with nerfs every single phase (some warranted) but i can’t say they really knew what they were doing or had any direction from phase to phase, point being:
BWL 6-set gave MG resets when the enemy dodges/parries.
the very next phase they put expertise on EVERYTHING, completely making this 6-set bonus more and more useless (than it already was) the more AQ gear you got.
Naxx 6-set, cheat death, i think this bonus has saved the raid maybe once or twice in all my naxx clears.
