RE: Mythic Raiding Needs To Change

Community General Discussion
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Continuing the discussion from Mythic Raiding Needs To Change:

I thought Dobi made some interesting points, and I see there being some value in allowing this conversation to occur outside of just the Community Council board.

Plus I can’t help but be a loud mouth :slight_smile:

I think this is very much a nostalgia driven thing. Frankly speaking, multiple raids in a single tier is just really annoying. Farm becomes tedious when you have to factor in travel time, it’s frustrating to be in a raid zone that doesn’t have any gear you need anymore, and it’s just an organizational nigtmare for even midtier CE guilds let alone your average AoTC or normal guild.

Oondasta is the reason. In all seriousness I think it’s critical to remember that the average WoW player isn’t interested in any difficult content, they want exceptionally easy content that drops the best possible gear. World Bosses are designed to be that weekly gear lockout for those “open world” players, who don’t want to commit any in game mechanics to memory.

Perfection. No notes. Beautifully written.

The issue with these bosses dropping additional loot is that the “hardmode” no longer becomes optional. It’s mandatory for PUGs and Guilds. Why would you ever waste your time in a group not doing something that gives you an extra chance at loot when there are dozens of groups that are trying to do it that way.

I’m personally not convinced that this is really that problematic. The purpose of the number of difficulties, at least to my mind, is to meet the players wherever they are and provide them with commensurate rewards as well as normalize the expectation levels of everyone in the group.

As for the power gains between tiers, I also don’t see this as an issue personally. WoW is seasonal now, you should really only be interested in gear that comes from the current season, and we all know that farming previous raid tiers for gear that is still BiS just feel awful (looking at you Azshara.)

Were they though? Maybe it’s just because the game still had that “new car smell” but I really feel like items like these have proven to cause more headaches than excitement. They took a significant amount of guild resources/investment, and there was never really any guarantee that it was going to pay off. How many people have lost their Shadowmourne or Val’anyre wielder to a higher ranked guild within a few resets of them completing the quest? It really sucks.

Need to coordinate which two of the same players are seen by everyone as being possessed by demons? Good luck! We didn’t build any kind of voting mechanism into the interface despite the mechanics being ripped from a popular game who’s critical game mechanics is voting :upside_down_face:

Please do make a follow up post!

Most of my post is my disagreements with this post; however, I think overall Dobi’s post was excellently written and very thoughtful.

Well done!

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I would say the name of the thread isn’t really representative from my point of view of the many points. I expected it to be more about mythic raiding but it’s mostly very general points about raiding.

I would say hardmode is an interesting idea but it also isn’t perfect and should be used more when it makes sense. I think we’re kinda stuck with the 4 raid difficulties at this point as each of them have a distinct crowd. Normal and LFR might probably be the closest to each other that could be put into 1 but the queue itself makes LFR way different.

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Do you find there a big difference between having multiple small raids and one big raid broken up into wings that can be tackled independantly?

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Not only is this a huge generalization but it’s also a huge generalization. I’d love to see where you’re getting this assertion. Because I don’t see it, but if you’ve got proof I’m more than willing to change my mind.

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To add on to that, look at all the complaints they’ve made about rare mobs being too hard this expansion, and those take less time to kill and do fewer things than the world boss.

So why is this a problem when it’s not problematic for a system like M+ to have 20 different difficulties with their own rewards, or for a game like Horizon zero dawn to effectively have 12 difficulties (6 for each of NG and NG+).

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Breaking up the tier into multiple raids is just inefficient.

Because raids exist, that’s why.

I’ll do you one better: my previous guild before we stopped raiding this season killed Mythic Nymue only to have it nerfed the following reset.

Good; meant the one reclear we did before calling it for the season was easier.

Is this a “Blizzard tunes the raid harder for the Race to World First then nerfs it later” argument? Because the fights are easier over time (players get more gear and more practice) and yes the fights are eventually nerfed. But if you’re waiting for a nerf to continue progression, then you’ve hit your wall. Either get stronger gear, get better, wait for a nerf that may not happen, or acknowledge this is your limit and be ready for the next season.

But that IS accounted for naturally…

Yes, it was the precursor to Heroic difficulty in raids.

Killing the boss on Mythic difficulty isn’t required to defeat the boss neither.

We have four raid difficulties now instead of two…

Yes.

“Company is bad for expanding its consumer base.”

Like what?

It doesn’t have to.

Yes.

Blizzard decided to elevate into an arms race with addon developers, but I don’t ever see them winning; just the average player losing. Mythic Smolderon orbs are a pain because players need to press a macro so the addon can assign the order, instead of removing the private aura and allowing the addon to do it immediately to cut out the frustration. Half of my guild’s first night on that boss was just making sure everyone’s addons and macros were working properly.

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I can just imagine how well that would go over today. Guild decides who get the legendary 1st, if you exclusively pug, good luck, you probably aren’t getting it.

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Ignoring the endless number of posts on this and other boards about content being too difficult, I think one has to just look at the popularity of Classic WoW. Classic WoW’s endgame content is braindead, and it rewards the absolute best gear in the game.

It’s no secret that Ulduar’s launch in WotLK was a massive wall for a lot of players who, in the face of this challenge, moved back over to Era or Hardcore realms.

The vast majority of players just don’t want hard content.

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I think there’s also a measure of “can’t” do hard content. As much as some players think that most people got better over time there’s still a large amount of players even in Classic that can’t handle their class rotation or a boss with 3 mechanics.

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100%. I brought up Oondasta to point out the fact that Blizzard did try to have difficult World Bosses, and this was the extremely unhealthy result:

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The rare mobs in zeralak were meant to be done in a group.

Now that the community has moved on to emerald dream, those rare movs cant be solod.

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Yes. Just like Vault of the Incarnates was meant to be done in a group.

Now that people have moved on to Amirdrassil, Vault can’t be solo’d.

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Endless posts have no bearing on reality. Noisy, unhappy people post. People who are fine with things USUALLY don’t bother.

Nothing you said is “proof”.

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This could just be me overestimating people, but I think a lot of the “can’t do hard content” crowd are actually just the “I’m going to willfully refuse to improve” crowd.

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Well, then notice how rare it is that people get traction with a post about how the game is too easy outside of a few specific activities.

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They did have hard world boss(elites) in Zaralek Cavern after the patch is over no one bother to group up and kill them so for those that wanted to kill them for mogs etc etc it was impossible.

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Agreed. We can only prog one boss at a time anyway, so whether it’s 2, 4 boss raids or 1, 8 boss raid doesn’t matter. Having two raids of the same tier make it harder to tell a single narrative as well since the raids can’t assume you’ve done the other one already.

True. People hate when the world bosses are hard.

I actually like when a nerf helps us get over the finish line, that way we can start on the next one. Most people I know are bored to tears with a boss by the time we kill it, especially the later ones.

True, the idea of it being optional is only if you’re wearing those rose-tinted glasses.

Another big true. LFR and normal don’t inflate the ilvl, and I honestly don’t see the problem people have with ilvl jumps to begin with. I should be noticeably stronger between tiers, or else our characters feel stagnant.

I’ve yet to see someone clamoring for the Shadowmourne-style legendary to have actually done it when it was current. That axe took casual players 5-6 months to build, or more.

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I would much prefer an extra 2-3 bosses raid than a season 4, release it 5-6 months into the last season and go crazy on those bosses design.

It would be a lot more interesting than rerunning raids we already cleared.

Mythic raiding is just the evolution of hard modes, I dont see the need to add those again to the current raiding model.

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The thing is that you get a season 4 or nothing at all. Season 4 is very light on development load due to just adding tweaks to already existing content, allowing them to continue focusing on the next expansion.

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I haven’t done mythic raiding, I’m old and I only just got back into it after a decade away.

There only used to be one tier of raid content which left you with either you can do it or you can’t. There was usually lengthy attunements and as an example to even get into black temple you had to clear SSC/TK to progress.

For nostalgia reasons a lot of of folks view tbc as a great xpac and forget a lot of the grind flaws for rep. The raiding experience was great, progression actually felt like it mattered and then they dropped sunwell to cap it and the guild breaker that was muru.

I didn’t raid much in wotlk so I don’t have an opinion but I felt cataclysm really brought a lot of balance on accessibility and variety. Dragonsoul felt like a slog and a wasted raid but the rest was great.

Mop absolutely killed it for me, the theme the grinds more rep gatekeeping to keep you logged in…it just felt like that depopulated the servers with a trash expansion.

Mythic was new to me when I came back, when I quit it was heroic as the pinnacle. I also don’t see a point other than challenging yourself, there’s simply too many tiers for no reason. Normal and lfr is pointless as I’d rather sink my time into mythic+. The raids themselves feel boring and it’s just flashy boss abilities get out of the fire and don’t wipe the raid mechanics.

I totally get why people want to do mythic raids and I know it’s not for the gear which makes sense and good for any of you that do it younger me would be all over it.

Anyway tldr: you don’t need 4 difficulties of raiding with small monetary gains in ilvl and Normal is useless.