Re: Havoc Demon Hunter's Tier Set

Hello there, thank you for clicking into my post. The intention of this post is to provide preliminary feedback on the Havoc tier bonus from the perspective of a long-term Havoc player as well as provide a few suggestions to follow up on the topic.

For those who just want to respond, the tl;dr is a request to change the tier set to buff Eye Beam damage as the two-piece bonus and bring back the Raddon’s Cascading Eyes effect (Eye Beam damage reduces the cooldown of Eye Beam) as the four-piece.

Now with that out of the way, let’s get into details. To start, Havoc this expansion has almost never pressed Blade Dance. There was a brief period of time in Castle Nathria where Havoc used Chaos Theory and thus had to press that button, and now First Blood is a viable selection as Havoc because of the Dancing with Fate buffs combined with the Frost Domination set. As it currently is tuned, the tier set would continue to allow Blade Dance to see significant use in Mythic Dungeon scenarios; however, when it comes to raid there are going to be much better alternatives, with those choices ultimately pushing Havoc away from any build that would desire Blade Dance on single target, and only encouraging use of the ability for very specific cleave scenarios outside of it.

Furthermore, with the decision to enable players to equip two legendary items, a theoretical “best” combo has already been found. Darkglare Boon and Agony Gaze - while playing Venthyr, of course - have a fairly powerful synergy, one that will push Venthyr to see a lot of play in single target and sustained cleave situations. Venthyr as a playstyle discourages the use of any spender that is not either Chaos Strike or Eye Beam, as the goal of that style of play is to refund as much Eye Beam as possible to extend your Sinful Brand debuff. Blade Dance will never be justified as a useable button for Venthyr, and as such, invalidates the tier set entirely in these scenarios.

Regarding Night Fae, Momentum Havoc would want to layer Essence Break and Momentum windows together on add burst which justifies the current two piece, but the four piece is practically useless as you wouldn’t use it outside of those small burst windows. First Blood Night Fae is only meant to be a Single Target spec and will be outshone by Venthyr given that the Night Fae Blazing Slaughter effect remains the way it is currently and is not reworked. Basically, Blade Dance is not something that will see much use at all for any Raid spec, which in turn means that the tier bonuses are currently buffing a niche, near-useless ability. To my knowledge, the only other tier set bonus that buffs a nearly-unusable ability right now is Restoration Shaman’s.

Given the return to spec-defining tier sets is likely meant to be met with a lot of fanfare, the knowledge that the current iteration of the tier is likely only useful some of the time feels pretty bad. That being said, there is another ability that could be considered “iconic” that many Havoc players also love to press: Eye Beam.

Every covenant and every current iteration of Havoc - Momentum Night Fae, First Blood Night Fae, and Cycle of Hatred Venthyr - press Eye Beam, and there is no circumstance they do not want to use it. While the impact for Momentum Fae is admittedly lower, the impact for First Blood Fae is much larger, as it gives them more Death Sweep casts per fight, an ability that is hitting extraordinarily hard on single target with Dancing with Fate and First Blood. Venthyr wants to cast as many Eye Beams as possible. Both of these covenants see a lot of play. If Eye Beam damage were increased by the tier’s two-piece bonus all playstyles benefit from it. That would leave the four-piece which I request be a throwback to one of the most beloved Havoc legendary effects of Legion; Raddon’s Cascading Eyes.

To refresh memories, the effect was as follows:

The remaining cooldown on Eye Beam is reduced by 0.3 sec each time it hits an enemy, up to a maximum of 20 sec.

If you remember back to Legion when this legendary made its debut there were clips of Lower Karazhan runs where Demon Hunters were quite literally spamming this ability back-to-back. And that was fun! Better, though, is that Night Fae Momentum benefits because they get more Furious Gaze uptime to potentially pair with Essence Breaks, Night Fae First Blood benefits because it grants them more Death Sweeps by virtue of being in Demonic more, Venthyr Havoc benefits because they want more casts in general, and the Havoc playerbase loved Raddon’s. Everyone wins!

In summary, please make the effects of Havoc’s tier 28 bonuses the following;

2 Pieces: Increase the damage of Eye Beam by X%.
4 Pieces: The remaining cooldown on Eye Beam is reduced by 0.Y sec each time it damages an enemy, up to a maximum of Z sec.

Thank you for any consideration of this change.

412 Likes

I love this Idea, the only problem is, Eye Beam this expansion has already been buffed thru the wazzu because of standard balance buffs, I don’t see 20% here versus Blade Dance. I don’t even see a %; Now if the 2pc instead granted the extra 2 seconds of Demonic? That would be awesome while 4pc gives Raddon’s. That will give Blizzard a VALID reason to buff Blade Dance’s Baseline Damage, 20% and that’s all we would need. Demonic was pruned from 8 to 6, in BfA we were pressing Blade Dance religiously because we could get off 2 or 3 Dances depending on our Haste. Granting us that extra 2 second window, makes it worth it again.

Like the way it is right now, Blizzard is being lazy, if they want to be lazy, this is how you actually do it.

6 Likes

I think if I’m being completely honest I don’t care too much what the 2 piece does as long as it impacts an ability that we regularly use in such a way that it feels meaningful. Your suggestion would work just as well as mine. At the end of the day tier is meant to either strongly impact or alter entirely how we play, but it has to do that using abilities that aren’t already going to require 3 or 4 other components of borrowed/temporary power to make them worth pressing in the first place.

11 Likes

What I am implying is the 20% damage should be baseline going into BD/DS; It shouldn’t be tied to a set bonus, this is lazy design. They basically just threw a dart on the wall, and it landed on anything besides the dart board. And its not just us getting this odd 2pc bonus. Like I get it, its early the PTR isnt live yet, but I am very curious to see what other class changes and balances they have in store, because my thing is, why would they focus on a BD/DS set, if nothing about that playstyle changes? Maybe, and this is a big MAYBE, what if they make First Blood baseline? Hell, bring back Bloodlet, THAT would make Momentum feel more useful again.

2 Likes

The unfortunate reality is that changes like this will never happen during an expansion outside of extreme cases where a spec is literally dead in the water. As much as I’d love a spec redesign, even things that could be considered “small” like this are likely never going to happen for a patch. I definitely want Havoc to receive a ground-up redesign for 10.0, but hoping for anything before then I think is unreasonable.

That being said, I agree that balance changes are also going to play a large part in this. The only reason I have to believe Blade Dance will not be receiving a buff is due to the last second nerf to Dancing with Fate. Originally it was going to be a 650% buff, but it was changed to 300%. If it remained as it was prior, First Blood would have absolutely seen a tremendous amount of play.

2 Likes

God that would make the AG/DBG build the only option and it is one I really do not want to play. Sure this would solve some limited issues with that build but it would gut any chance of playing anything else.

6 Likes

Thats the thing that upsets me, the buff to the conduit was fantastic, 650% brought Blade Dance to a better competitive level. What urks my tater is that they allowed this buff to go on through-out 9.1.5 testing then last minute nerfed it, with out really an ample opportunity to test it. And of course, we asked why the nerf, no response, typical Blizzard communcation… “We’ll do better at communicating” get out of my face with that non-sense, wheres that Community Council they touted about???

I got side tracked, point is regardless of the nerf it still saw a DPS gain in Blade Dance, but ONLY if you go First Blood with the conduit, and the stars align properly to show it. So yeah, people have started to use the build, but it only sees amazing numbers if your running the Frost SoD set. I was seeing 30k to 40k blasts from it with 80 to 90k crits with it just using a full on AoE build that included BD.

1 Like

Thing is, you’re already going to be doing that. Venthyr is just that strong right now.

3 Likes

How about making First Blood baseline at the same time we give Cycle of Hatred “…also Blade Dance reduces the cooldown of Eye Beam by X sec.” ? It would, at least, make sense with all of the builds we usually play in Shadowlands.

2 Likes

They wouldn’t even need to change the tier sets like this?

I love this idea ty

1 Like

I think “let’s find a way to keep not hitting Blade Dance” is the wrong take. Blade Dance should be a viable and necessary part of our rotation and kit.

6 Likes

Wow, I was not expecting this much attention!

The problem is that ultimately any build that will want to press Blade Dance is Night Fae, and the unfortunate reality is that Blazing Slaughter needs a full rework to ever allow it to compete with Venthyr. I suppose something to the effect of making The Hunt extend the duration of your next Immolation Aura by some percent (probably 75-100%) to give it a serious synergy with Burning Wound would work and potentially allow First Blood Demonic to see play.

I’m not against a Blade Dance tier, I should clarify this. I’m against a tier that pushes a button that current best theorycrafted builds would never, ever touch. The 4 piece bonus is definitely not ideal no matter what, however. There is enough RNG in our kit.

Something like this would simply never happen for a late expansion patch, as much as I may wish it were so.

3 Likes

This would be so much more fun to play. Eye beam is the skill all demon hunters want to press, not blade dance…

2 Likes

Disagree. I find Blade Dance just as satisfying, and iconic, as Eye Beam to press. This also isn’t a rare sentiment.

8 Likes

Love this concept. Mainly because I like being able to swap between covenants and the set bonus doesn’t look all that appealing to Venthyr and feels like you’re basically forced to play NF First Blood.

As for the Darkglare and AG combo, I noted in a Torghast run that Fel Dev also increase the seconds to Sinful Brand when I got the Collective Anguish power, so that could also be a play as well especially if we do get this sort of Set Bonus you’re discussing.

It’s entirely possible it does; however, right now sims don’t properly reflect it, so I cannot for certain say it will or will not outperform DGB. I hope it does if we don’t see any orher huge changes because that is one fewer layer of RNG, and the less RNG, the better.

This is a fair sentiment to have. I do believe this is a good place to throw suggestions, too. I’m not 100% married to my own idea, I just want a tier set that benefits all covenant playstyles. The most discouraging thing about covenants are how absolutely poorly they mesh with tier right now.

1 Like

I love the way that this is designed. This legendary was one of my favorites back in legion, and if I were to see it again, I’d be incredibly happy. The current set bonus is useless. Seeing this would make me happy to play my Demon Hunter going into 9.2.

5 Likes

There are several issues with these set bonuses, the first and most obvious being that blade dance might as well not even be a part of the baseline havoc toolkit with how absolute garbage it is. First blood should have been made baseline years ago, but alas. So if you aren’t speccing first blood, these bonuses will literally do nothing.

The second is just how weak these bonuses are. Even in best case scenario, BD/DS is not more than 20% of your damage even with first blood. That makes the 2pc bonus a pathetic 4% damage increase, and the 4pc is likely much worse than that since you have to actively spend an extra GCD to take advantage of it, and even if you didnt its just 1 free blade dance every 5 blade dances, or a 20% increase for another paltry 4%. Realistically its more like 2.5-3% dps increase.

Just looking at some of the other, arguably more powerful than havoc demon hunter, classes/specs tier bonuses, fire mage and moonkin are miles ahead of these pathetic havoc bonuses, and their bonuses are talent-agnostic and work with any build, while our worse bonus is tied to a weak talent choice.

Of all the abilities they could have buffed with these tier sets, blade dance had to be the absolute worst. They really need to do something to the ability at a baseline if they want to keep putting stuff like this in the game. It’s almost like they dont even realize just how awful the ability actually is without first blood.

I think the idea for the changed tier set bonuses is a good one, it wouldn’t really make venthyr giga-OP, as they will likely already be able to fairly consistently maintain near 100% uptime on brand with 2 legendary synergy, and literally every build wants to press eye beam.

A set bonus buffing immolation aura could be cool as well, since thats another ability literally every talent build presses, and would actually close a bit of the power gap between venthyr and fae since fae wants to use the immo aura legendary.

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These changes sound like they would work with their vision of DH and would make DH fun to play. For these reasons alone we will not see this change. They will once again ignore player feedback and stick to their tier sets which suck and continue to drive players away from the game.

2 Likes